Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Naturally.

Nice people or things that exist that you want to have a relationship with.

In the fictional realm, it would be cool to know people like Batman or Rey or Golan Trevize <sigh>. But I can frankly think of no deity I'd like to meet, much less have a relationship with.

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Does the universe have to exist in itself?

You're kind of making the universe an entity rather than an existent.

Quote: FrGamble

God does love you so much that He will not force Himself upon you.

Force? Who cares about force. There
are a thousand obvious ways that
involve no force at all. Yet where
is god? He's hiding in the musty pages
of some old book full of hearsay
testimony from men who have been
dead for 2000 years.

Quote: stinkingliberal

So if he luvvvvs me, shouldn't he make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that I get the message rather than run the risk that I won't be saved?
.

The Xtion god reminds me of a the football
coach who loves the crap out of you if you
make the team, but could care less about you
if you don't. And he won't go out of his way
to make sure you get on the team, either. It's
all up to you. Phooey on that, who needs it.

Quote: stinkingliberal

That's more Christian illogic. Presumably, if I don't glom onto his message, then I will not be saved and I will spend eternity undergoing unimaginable torture (by beings created by God for that expressed purpose). So if he luvvvvs me, shouldn't he make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that I get the message rather than run the risk that I won't be saved?

A loving mother will FORCE her kid to stay out of the street so he doesn't get run over. She will also FORCE him to eat and dress properly, etc. etc. If we are God's children, and he luvvvvs us, shouldn't he do everything in his power to keep us from going to hell and burning for all eternity? Clearly, we lack the ability to make sure that happens on our own--just look at me, a stinking atheist. Shouldn't God get proactive rather than run the risk that I'll be run over by a cement truck tomorrow and be consigned to the depths of hell?

Sorry, your faith and mythology just don't make sense.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” You've just been told in no uncertain terms. You now have no excuse. Mark the date and time. God just did.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

"And he said, Then I beg you, father, to send him (Lazarus) to my father’s (Stinkingliberals') house for I have five brothers so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment. But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. And he said, No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead." (Or write thousand foot letters in the sky.)

There is a lot of mistakes in the understanding of Christianity that I think need to be corrected in your understanding and then I think things will make more sense.

Quote: stinkingliberal

That's more Christian illogic. Presumably, if I don't glom onto his message, then I will not be saved and I will spend eternity undergoing unimaginable torture (by beings created by God for that expressed purpose).

Okay a couple of things here. If you don't come to believe in the message of the Gospel it does not mean you are automatically damned to hell. You have to understand it and consciously reject it, and don't worry you don't understand it. Even then there may be lots of reasons why you may not be able to come to belief in Christ, things that God alone can know and maybe even you don't. God's mercy is infinite and if you strive to live a good life as best as you are able who am I to judge? Don't be too quick to condemn yourself because I can guarantee you that God is not.

Hell is simply separation from God. It is not a torture chamber where God has designed things that would hurt us or cause pain. Those images express to us what separation from God is; it is the total absence of all love, goodness, joy, and hope. Also God would never create any creature for the expressed purpose of hurting others or even to go to hell. Remember that demons are fallen angels.

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So if he luvvvvs me, shouldn't he make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that I get the message rather than run the risk that I won't be saved?

The message is pretty clear and simple. God loves you and wants to be in a relationship with you to help you now and bless you for all eternity. If you hadn't heard that message yet then now you can say you have gotten the message. Now God wants to help you to respond to this invitation of His to love you. What is your response to Him?

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A loving mother will FORCE her kid to stay out of the street so he doesn't get run over. She will also FORCE him to eat and dress properly, etc. etc. If we are God's children, and he luvvvvs us, shouldn't he do everything in his power to keep us from going to hell and burning for all eternity? Clearly, we lack the ability to make sure that happens on our own--just look at me, a stinking atheist. Shouldn't God get proactive rather than run the risk that I'll be run over by a cement truck tomorrow and be consigned to the depths of hell?

What real power does the mother have to keep her kids safe? Yes, there are times when she can physically grab her child running for danger and pull them out of the way, and God does do this at times. However, by far the most common and greatest way a mother protects her children is by teaching them to listen and trust her. By being obedient to the mother she can turn her back and the children will remain safe. The greatest and most loving mother though would not lock up her child in the basement just so they wouldn't get hit by a cement truck. Is that what you want? Is that the greatest example of love? I tend to think the more loving a mother is the more she will do everything in her power to teach her children the right things to do. She unfortunately can't make us pay attention or force us to obey what she teaches.

Quote: Nareed

You're kind of making the universe an entity rather than an existent.

I think that kind of answers my question. if the universe caused itself to exist then it would be an entity. However, I agree with what you are suggesting here it is existent and if existent then dependent on something else for its existence.

Quote: Evenbob

The Xtion god reminds me of a the football
coach who loves the crap out of you if you
make the team, but could care less about you
if you don't. And he won't go out of his way
to make sure you get on the team, either. It's
all up to you. Phooey on that, who needs it.

This makes me really sad. God is NOT a football coach - He is your Heavenly Father. You are loved so much and nothing can change that, no matter what team you play on or how good you are. God will do anything at all for you to remind you how precious you are and what an important part you are in the human family. He will even die for you to show you that.

Quote: FrGamble

if the universe caused itself to exist then it would be an entity.

You are assuming anything non-contingent perforce ahs to be a being. You have no basis for such an assumption.

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However, I agree with what you are suggesting here it is existent and if existent then dependent on something else for its existence.

Not if the universe is a non-contingent existent.