In The News Today...

Quote: AZDuffman

I am tired of hearing the "I was just a kid, I did not know!" thing. Kids younger stormed the beaches at Normandy and died in Vietnam. Time to kill childhoods and hold accountability. Of course my TIL idea will help.



Sounds like the USSR. No reason for it to be free. We cannot ask all those professors to work for no pay. If you went to college and saw how people who's parents paid their way behaved vs. people who paid their own way you would see how "free college" works out.



Which is why I said, we have too many kids going to college, not too few. "Free college" will not help. It will just make more useless degrees.

The college I went to is at half the students when I was there and was forced into a 3 way merger. IMHO it might well be an office park or senior hospice in a generation as it was clearly the weakest of the 3 merged schools. I am not liked on its FB group for pointing out reality. So many members there think the old days will come back.

Let enrollment decline and let the weak schools close. Or let the schools keep enrolling Chinese students who did not get into university in China and think American college is the ticket. They are paying top dollar across the fruited plain.

Yes, and when those kids returned from storming the beaches they could go to college for about 50 bucks a year.... (Though they would not have to because of the GI bill in that case).

And, I don't disagree with you at all about how seriously people take college from kids with rich parents to self pay.

None of that has anything to do with the astronomically high prices that colleges cost, which leads to debt. Almost nobody can self-pay anymore. Either your parents pay, your employer (or future employer) pays, or you go into debt. There is just no realistic scenario for an 18 year old to pay 20-60k plus a year (not including actual living expenses) even working their tail off (which is hard if you are a fulltime student).

I don't understand why people do not understand how expensive college in America. Not only is it historically unprecedented here (and every year it goes up and up, far beyond inflation), but there is also nowhere in the world like it. The world average (which is not even fair, because the median is better, and far lower), but even the average is less than 50% the cost of America, and even this is unfair, because in many of the "expensive" (laughs in American) countries, citizens do not actually have to pay much, if any of it (its more for people who want to pay to be there)....


You think that you took college more seriously and it was more valuable to you because you self-paid (I actually agree), however, people simply cannot do this anymore. I am guessing you went to college in a similar era to my parents late 60s-early70s, where you could work a minimum wage job, and pay your college in full with zero debt (and still save). This is not realistic anymore.

Quote: DRich

I can tell you from my experience buying and selling houses in the last year, the Zillow prices have been lower than the actual selling prices. The market has been so crazy their algorithms can't keep up. We offered $30k-$50k over Zillow prices on a few houses and were rejected because of higher offers. We made offers on nine different houses before i agreed to pay a ridiculous price just so we had somewhere to live. Interest rates now are almost double what they were a year ago so that will slow the market down as I think the majority of people still get mortgages when buying a house.

When I sold my condo earlier this year, the Zillow estimate was WAY BELOW what I actually ended up getting for it.

For some reason, they had it in their system that another unit near me had sold recently for like $120k or something crazy low (it hadn’t), so that lowered the estimates for all the condos near me.

Moral of the story: sometimes the Zillow estimate isn’t even in the ballpark.

Quote: Gandler

None of that has anything to do with the astronomically high prices that colleges cost, which leads to debt. Almost nobody can self-pay anymore. Either your parents pay, your employer (or future employer) pays, or you go into debt. There is just no realistic scenario for an 18 year old to pay 20-60k plus a year (not including actual living expenses) even working their tail off (which is hard if you are a fulltime student).

I don't understand why people do not understand how expensive college in America. Not only is it historically unprecedented here (and every year it goes up and up, far beyond inflation), but there is also nowhere in the world like it. The world average (which is not even fair, because the median is better, and far lower), but even the average is less than 50% the cost of America, and even this is unfair, because in many of the "expensive" (laughs in American) countries, citizens do not actually have to pay much, if any of it (its more for people who want to pay to be there)....

People do understand. The answer is if the ROI is not there DON'T GO!

Take a trade. Get an IT cert. Join the military. I realize in our "every kid should be able to go to college" this is anathema. BOO HOO HOO. Some kids do not get to go. Who cares?!

Cost is high because of loans and the left's answer is to subsidize it even more? Definition of insanity?

Mike Rowe is a national hero for pointing out the insanity of it all. More college grads means more jobs can have "degree required" even if there is no reason meaning more kids think they need a degree. Here is a crazy thing, my old employer dropped the degree requirement for their branch managers because they cannot get enough degreed people to take the jobs. It was a job where you probably did need your degree at least an Associates. But they are now working around it somehow. I am talking a management job running a 2-4 million dollar a year business.

We have to get over this fascination with paper.

Quote: ams288

When I sold my condo earlier this year, the Zillow estimate was WAY BELOW what I actually ended up getting for it.

For some reason, they had it in their system that another unit near me had sold recently for like $120k or something crazy low (it hadn’t), so that lowered the estimates for all the condos near me.

Moral of the story: sometimes the Zillow estimate isn’t even in the ballpark.

I agree. The house next door to my parents just sold for $1.55 million and their house which is slightly bigger but also slightly older is Zestimated at $850k. I would guess that in a few months theirs will probably be Zestimated at $1.3 or higher.

Quote: AZDuffman

People do understand. The answer is if the ROI is not there DON'T GO!

Take a trade. Get an IT cert. Join the military. I realize in our "every kid should be able to go to college" this is anathema. BOO HOO HOO. Some kids do not get to go. Who cares?!

Cost is high because of loans and the left's answer is to subsidize it even more? Definition of insanity?

Mike Rowe is a national hero for pointing out the insanity of it all. More college grads means more jobs can have "degree required" even if there is no reason meaning more kids think they need a degree. Here is a crazy thing, my old employer dropped the degree requirement for their branch managers because they cannot get enough degreed people to take the jobs. It was a job where you probably did need your degree at least an Associates. But they are now working around it somehow. I am talking a management job running a 2-4 million dollar a year business.

We have to get over this fascination with paper.

No, the left's answer is to make it cost nothing so there are no costs to it. Loans would not be an issue if it was a free experience.

I fully agree with you that I think certifications can be more valuable (I think we have discussed this in other threads), but these should also be free. Certifications are often offered through community colleges (and in many cases are equivalent to an associates, at least for longer ones, and even shorter ones are still at community colleges).

I would honestly be fine if we just go back to community college being free, which would lead to Public Universities being cheaper.
Though long term, I think all State owned schools should be free.

Many countries do not even allow private universities (another unique aspect of America) or if they do are run by the Church (or Mosque) as a work-around..... Even in Canada private Universities are rare (and most are holdovers from old religious institutions).

America has basically created a bubble with college where its perceived value causes people to invest money (and time) into an inflated program, that in many cases they could learn in a streamlined 6 month program (or far less) for a fraction of the cost, but instead deem it worth paying 20-60k a year for four (or more) years....

This is not on track to end well, eventually people will realize that the market is overvaluing a degree and it will come crashing down. And, as you can get degrees online or part time for a fraction of the cost, and/or attend a streamlined certification program, the traditional college experience will wash away. I mean already most people want a job where they can work from home. How long until people realize that they don't want to go to a physical classroom, especially when it means going in debt for the majority of their working life (most people do not repay for over 20 years)? How long are people going to continue to destroy their financial future for something that often they do not really want to do (and feel pressured into), especially when more logical alternatives exist?

I like Mike Rowe, and his organization is great, but it should not be needed because certifications (IE majority through community college and tech colleges) should still be free. Not too many decades ago they were. When people are talking about going back to an arbitrary time when we placed more value on such certifications, they need to start with that.

Community College being made free is a great starting point, because even if Public Universities still keep charges, its an automatic 50% savings. And, for people who just want certs, you can get as many as you want for free (and often they are offered in the evenings and weekends so you can take them while working).

Quote: Gandler

No, the left's answer is to make it cost nothing so there are no costs to it. Loans would not be an issue if it was a free experience.

I fully agree with you that I think certifications can be more valuable (I think we have discussed this in other threads), but these should also be free. Certifications are often offered through community colleges (and in many cases are equivalent to an associates, at least for longer ones, and even shorter ones are still at community colleges).

Why do you think everything is supposed to be "free?" There is no "free." What you really are saying is "post-secondary education should be paid for by money taken from people at the point of a gun."

Really, why should people not have to pay for improving their own job prospects. Know the kind of people who never get ahead in life? The people who are waiting for someone else to give them a handout.

Quote: AZDuffman

Why do you think everything is supposed to be "free?" There is no "free." What you really are saying is "post-secondary education should be paid for by money taken from people at the point of a gun."

Really, why should people not have to pay for improving their own job prospects. Know the kind of people who never get ahead in life? The people who are waiting for someone else to give them a handout.

It's not a far out idea, when you were in college you could have gone to community college for free. I think we should go back to this.

Quote: Gandler

It's not a far out idea, when you were in college you could have gone to community college for free. I think we should go back to this.

Not at all, I had to pay. Free is a bad idea, as I said before it just fills the classrooms with people who are not serious about things.

What you are suggesting is we send people to 13th grade. We already do that as too often community college is filled with the same screw ups from high school acting the same way. I had a guy worked for me said he walked in, saw the same idiots, and just dropped out so as not to be around that element. Make it "free" and that is what you will get.

Quote: AZDuffman

Not at all, I had to pay. Free is a bad idea, as I said before it just fills the classrooms with people who are not serious about things.

What you are suggesting is we send people to 13th grade. We already do that as too often community college is filled with the same screw ups from high school acting the same way. I had a guy worked for me said he walked in, saw the same idiots, and just dropped out so as not to be around that element. Make it "free" and that is what you will get.

My parents told me it stopped being free sometime in the late 70s or early 80s (at least where they lived) and they only know because they kept taking classes for fun (they both had Masters at this point, so they didn't "need" community credits). But, (according to them) people would come in and sign up for classes and use up slots and not actually attend, so they started charging a small reservation fee and it quickly escalated from there.

Many people screw up in High School, should they never be allowed to go to college? It's pretty rough if you are going to told somebody's performance from HS against them for life (when they were 14-17)....

I graduated HS with a very good GPA, and good SAT scores, this still helps me when applying for more undergraduate programs, but on a personal level it means very little (I don't recall much).... Most of what I recall from HS has little to do with actual classes....

Quote: Gandler

My parents told me it stopped being free sometime in the late 70s or early 80s (at least where they lived) and they only know because they kept taking classes for fun (they both had Masters at this point, so they didn't "need" community credits). But, (according to them) people would come in and sign up for classes and use up slots and not actually attend, so they started charging a small reservation fee and it quickly escalated from there.

Probably different in different places. I had to pay in 1989. My dad used the senior discount to sign for classes, never show, and use the gym. They eventually caught on and banned him. I always told him why not go to a class you might have an interest in. Talking continuing ed classes, not "college" classes. He never listened.

Quote:

Many people screw up in High School, should they never be allowed to go to college? It's pretty rough if you are going to told somebody's performance from HS against them for life (when they were 14-17)....

I graduated HS with a very good GPA, and good SAT scores, this still helps me when applying for more undergraduate programs, but on a personal level it means very little (I don't recall much).... Most of what I recall from HS has little to do with actual classes....

As usual you are missing my point. "Free" college will just become "13th grade." Colleges would just fill up with even more people who do not want to be there but go to be warehoused, same as they were as high school screw-ups. Creating a worse learning environment.

No, being a high school screw up does not go against you for life. You can pay to go to community college to redeem yourself. But really if you hated school that much why do you want to go to college?