Confessional

Quote: FrGamble

I'm curious why isn't suicide self-murder?

Just like killing in war isn't murder, and that's
premeditated as hell. Just like killing somebody
with your car accidentally isn't murder. Just like
a doctor losing a patient on the table isn't
murder. Just like capital punishment isn't murder.
Just like a cop shooting somebody isn't murder.
In order for suicide to be called murder, all
those examples must be called murder also.

Like so many so called 'sins'; gambling, drinking,
wife beating, slavery, suicide isn't covered in the
Bible. Why is that.

Quote: FrGamble

Isn't that your view? Oh wait, I forgot you might whisper to this young kid that he is doomed to be eternally reincarnated and live out this suffering over and over for all time without end. Man, talk about twisted views!

Is your life one of suffering?

Good distinctions and examples about the type of killing we call murder. From your examples it seems that murder needs to be premeditated and not accidental. It also is more personal and not part of some bigger picture like a war we are in or when we are doing a dangerous job. Murder is the deliberate and personally desired killing of another person. Suicide is very similar except it is killing yourself. Therefore it seems that suicide is a unique type of murder.

Of course in the Bible it is not just murder that is condemned, but thou shall not kill. Jesus makes this deeper, you shall not hate. This means not hating your neighbor, but just as importantly not hating yourself. In fact Jesus says to love one another as you love yourself. Suicide is against all of this. It is the height of despair and the ultimate victory of depression. Need I remind you that suicide is explicitly mentioned in the Bible when Judas went out and hung himself. Instead of turning back to the Lord he gave in to despair.

There's no evidence that a word of your ANY religion is true.

Doesn't that bother you?
No more than it bothers the magician who knows that the woman did not really get sawed in half.

The bible says pretty much what you want it to say. You can extend or infer anything you want.

You will note here that the penalty for two men fighting and causing a miscarriage is not the same as the penalty for murder:

Quote:

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (NAS, Exodus 21:22-24)

I also observe that you also have to infer what Jesus thought about abortion, because that was also practiced and legal at the time he was alive, yet he didn't speak out against it.

You also have to infer when life begins. You can clearly infer that life begins when you take your first breath.

Quote:

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (NIV, Genesis 2:7)

Is hate a necessary ingredient to murder? I don't think it is.

Quote: FrGamble

Good distinctions and examples about the type of killing we call murder. From your examples it seems that murder needs to be premeditated and not accidental. It also is more personal and not part of some bigger picture like a war we are in or when we are doing a dangerous job. Murder is the deliberate and personally desired killing of another person. Suicide is very similar except it is killing yourself. Therefore it seems that suicide is a unique type of murder.

Of course in the Bible it is not just murder that is condemned, but thou shall not kill. Jesus makes this deeper, you shall not hate. This means not hating your neighbor, but just as importantly not hating yourself. In fact Jesus says to love one another as you love yourself. Suicide is against all of this. It is the height of despair and the ultimate victory of depression. Need I remind you that suicide is explicitly mentioned in the Bible when Judas went out and hung himself. Instead of turning back to the Lord he gave in to despair.

Apparently there are no penalty's for inveigling or obfuscation.

Quote: FrGamble

Murder is the deliberate and personally desired killing of another person. Suicide is very similar except it is killing yourself. Therefore it seems that suicide is a unique type of murder.
.

Then so is killing in war, that's as deliberate
as you can get. So is state execution, they
even set the exact time to the minute.
So are police shoot outs, they always shoot
to kill, that's how they're trained. So is pulling
the plug on somebody, surely that's murder
under your definition.

You want to change all these scenarios
to pre mediated murder, just so you can
squeeze suicide in there. Really? You would
go that far just so aren't wrong about something?

Suicide is not murder. You make all these other
important decisions all along in your life, and
you're denied the final one because some religion
says their phony baloney god doesn't like it? I
don't think so.

Quote: Fleastiff

There's no evidence that a word of your ANY religion is true.

Doesn't that bother you?
No more than it bothers the magician who knows that the woman did not really get sawed in half.

There is plenty of evidence that every word of my religion is true. In fact doesn't it bother you that there is no evidence to support a claim that there is not a God? Doesn't it bother you that what you see as just an illusion is believed by and has changed people's lives on a daily basis? You can't handle that religion is true and that there is a God so you claim what you see is just an illusion, brainwashing, or a trick. Your comments don't bother me because I know and experience every day the reality of Christ and His love. It does seem like my comments do bother you because you know there is more to life and for whatever reason have closed yourself off to the possibility of God. If you want to experience the reality of Christianity give it a try and I guarantee you will discover it is true.

Quote: Evenbob

Then so is killing in war, that's as deliberate
as you can get. So is state execution, they
even set the exact time to the minute.
So are police shoot outs, they always shoot
to kill, that's how they're trained. So is pulling
the plug on somebody, surely that's murder
under your definition.

Actually if you look again at the working definition we are creating it is both deliberate and personally desired. Shooting towards the enemy lines or in a police shootout is not personally desired, heck you don't even know the people you are shooting at. Both of these cases are also in the midst of something larger that is not personal. Capital Punishment, which I believe should be banned, is also not personally desired. The sheriff or warden don't necessarily have anything personal against the criminal.

Did you read my earlier post about suicide being against Scripture not just because it is murder of self, but also because it the height of despair. After all Judas was the first suicide we read of in the Bible. It is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, there is no situation where it would be the best decision to kill yourself. If you are dying a painful death you can be medicated to relieve pain, if you feel unloved you can be loved by caring people, if you are disappointed with yourself or angry at others you can be forgiven.

Quote:

You make all these other
important decisions all along in your life,

And what are all those decisions all about - making your life better. Why now at the end of your life should you make a decision that goes against everything you have spent your life doing?

Quote: FrGamble

it is both deliberate and personally desired.

Dropping bombs on a specific target is
personally desired killing. Dropping
the A bomb on Hiroshima was a very
personally desired way to kill thousands
of Japanese. Pulling the plug on Granny
is very personal. Having the enemy in
the sights of your rifle and killing him
is as personal as it gets.

Yet none of these is considered murder.
No matter how you try and twist it, suicide
is not murder. Nor is it punishable as
murder anywhere. If you fail, you won't
be arrested for attempted murder. That
would be silly. In most countries now,
suicide isn't even illegal, let alone murder.
And when it was illegal, the punishment
for attempting it was quite light. You
weren't imprisoned for years for trying
to kill yourself.