"Cult of Mary"

Quote: Nareed

I've tried this many times. Even as recently as the 1860s in the US, both sides of the abolition debate could, and did, cite the Bible for justifications of their respective positions. .

I had forgotten all about that. Both sides
were equally fervent the Bible was on
their side, they had scripture to back it
up. The Bible can be anything you want
it to be, 3000 different Christian sects
attest to that.

Bob please stop, you are beginning to be almost unanswerable in regard to your invective. I believe in some ways you are dragging down the conversation. Please remember Latin and Greek were not as uncommonly spoken as they are today (outside of Greece that is). Also please remember the illiteracy rates from the past. The Church had no desire or effort to keep the Bible from being translated. In fact Cathedrals, stain glass windows, and your favorite - statues - were often attempts to translate the Biblical stories into something people could visually understand. I don't know who or what has so corrupted your mind concerning the Catholic Church but while we are far from perfect we are not the boogeyman.

Quote: FrGamble

Please remember Latin and Greek were not as uncommonly spoken as they are today (outside of Greece that is). Also please remember the illiteracy rates from the past. The Church had no desire or effort to keep the Bible from being translated.

Facts:

The Old Testament was translated into before Christianity existed. It was called the Septuagent, allegedly because 70 rabbis worked at the translation. Later on the emperor Justinian decreed that Jews use it in their religious services, as the exposure to Greek might lead them, somehow, to Christianity (imagine the mockery had Twitter existed then).

The New Testament was written in Greek originally, not Hebrew or Aramaic.

Quote: FrGamble

The Church had no desire or effort to keep the Bible from being translated. .

Wow. Just wow, you blew my mind. You have
never heard of William Tyndale, who was
sentenced to be burned at the stake for
translating the Bible into English against
the orders and will of the Pope and clergy?
This is a very well known story, this man is
a hero for what he did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

"Tyndale dedicated his life to translating the Bible into vernacular English, so the laypeople of England could read it for themselves. Everyone was uncomfortable with the Bible being readily accessible to the commoners, because how could the Church then keep power? Not to be deterred, Tyndale went into hiding in Belgium and Germany, evading capture while he translated the New Testament, finishing it in 1525. It was printed en masse and smuggled all over Europe, especially into England, where the Catholics in charge burned a number of them in public.

Six thousand copies were printed. The bishops did everything they could to eradicate the Bibles -- Bishop Tunstall had copies ceremoniously burned at St. Paul's; the archbishop of Canterbury bought up copies to destroy them. 90% of the King James Version of the Bible and 75% of the Revised Standard Version are from the translation of the Bible into English made by William Tyndale.

He was finally caught after some help from a backstabbing friend named Henry Phillips, charged with heresy for no other reason than translating the Bible into English, and strangled, then burned at the stake, on 6 October 1536, in Vilvoorde, outside Brussels. The Catholic Church has never apologized. All subsequent English Bibles, including the King James have borrowed extensively from Tyndale’s Bible."

Quote: FrGamble

Look I am first to admit, along with the Church, that there were many times in our history that we were wrong. Pope Benedict not too long ago went through a long list of mea culpas. I just can't stand by when people extrapolate from those sins that the Church teaches so and so and that God is so and so.

Firstly, I know you respond in sweeps because you are addressed in sweeps. I don't hold it against you, or against EB when he does it, it's just sometimes I need to get down to brass tacks, and I want everyone to realize that the sweeping needs to be set aside for the particular thought I'm trying to have. In short, no biggie, don't worry about it.

But as far as your apology, you're both right and yet still miss the point.

I will admit that you have admitted fault. I know the new Pope is being lauded high and low for doing the same. But that's not entirely what I'm speaking to.

I don't have an example at the ready unfortunately, so let's see if I can piece this together on the fly. The Bible says a lot about gays, right? I can't really think of a positive thing, and think most would find it difficult to find one. Mostly, it says repent, it says fight the urge, it says battle the sin, and in extreme cases, it says just throw rocks at them until they die. The level of severity I don't care about. My point is that the Bible is overwhelmingly, if not completely, negative when it comes to gays.

You don't seem to agree with that view, based on your comments here at DT. I'm laughably far behind on the doings of New Pope, but the mumblings I heard seem to follow that same thread. Maybe not acceptance and certainly not approval, but a definite toning down of the persecution of the gay people.

That's all well and good. Seriously, it is both well AND good. Someone should be taking notice of this, you should be commended. BUT, and it's a big damn but, you are not long for this world. New Pope isn't long for this world. You are but a few men reaching a few more. THE BOOK is the real teacher, is it not? Aren't you merely a conduit of sorts? What happens when you are gone?

When you are gone, the Catholic church will not follow the word of FrG. It will not base itself on the teachings of New Pope. It will base itself on the one and only thing it ever has, the word of God. The Bible. And it strikes me that some of the things in the Bible are about as appropriate for this day and age as New Earth Creationism is appropriate in a high school Earth Science course. They're just wrong. By any judgement of fairness, honesty, and intellect, they are wrong.

But you can never change that, can you? And by "you", I mean generic "you". I guess I really mean anybody. It sort of seems like you're forced to have to abide by things that are false. Because I don't think the Bible can be changed. It's the ultimate truth, right? And a Catholic must believe that, he must abide by it. So what do I see as an outsider? I see something wrong. I can see how it might have been right at one time, I can see how a difference in culture, a difference in scientific abilities, and difference in whatever could cause one to believe it. I don't fault that, everyone makes mistakes. But once you know it's wrong, then what?

You can be a man and admit it. That would give me the most confidence and you would gain the most respect if this was the case. But I don't think you can do that, because to do so would be stating that God made a mistake. That just can't happen or the whole premise is shot.

You can ignore it. But you can't really do that because people ask questions. Whether it's an angry heathen on DT or little Timmy at St. Joe's, you're going to have to give an answer, one way or another.

So there's only one thing left to do (in my eyes) - Fudge. "God created the world in 6 days, really?" "Well, you see, time is different for God....". "So God sent bears to kill a bunch of mischievous children?" "Well, you see, this is allegory, a way of telling a story..." "So kill the gays?" "No, not really, we're just trying to kill the sin they're corrupted by. We really love the person underneath..."

It's all just so much fluff. It's so unnecessary. And it's probably a big reason why I hate the church (yes, I said hate). Because deep inside there somewhere, there is True Good. While I'm pretty ignorant about most, there's a reason why I know so much about Christianity despite never being forced into it or attending church even one day. It's because (some of) the teachings of Jesus have great value. I mean really freaking great, great enough that I've sought it out of my own accord. There's a reason I describe my own life as "an attempt to be Christ-like". IT'S GOOD STUFF. But the church throws on so much extra garbage that I can't figure out how anyone gets caught up in it. It boggles the mind. And, if I'm being honest, it pisses me off. Because all that fluff is unnecessary, and you're turning millions off from a great base product because of all the stipulations you attach to them (again, you = generic you).

There's something here that's bugging the hell out of me. I know you look at your Bible and say "It's so simple, why doesn't Face get it?". And I'll look at the Bible, and I'll say "It's so simple, why doesn't FrG get it?" Same Bible, same species of homo sapien, same language, close to the same culture, but we just keep talking past each other. Wiz is wracked with guilt over abandoning his shopping cart. Both of us understand why he is. Neither of us will agree with the reason behind it. I wish you would get out of the church, because there is so much good you could do without the baggage. You probably wish I would join the church, because there is so much good I could do in the Name of God. Christ on a cracker, but this is fascinating...

I'm out of steam. More later, perhaps.

Quote: Face

But you can never change that, can you? And by "you", I mean generic "you". I guess I really mean anybody. It sort of seems like you're forced to have to abide by things that are false. Because I don't think the Bible can be changed. It's the ultimate truth, right? And a Catholic must believe that, he must abide by it.

Not quite.

One of the central issues of the Reformation, if not the central issue, was what constituted divine authority. The Catholic church, and for that matter the various Orthodox churches, place some of it on the Bible and some on the church hierarchy. This latter at first meant bishops (often referred to by other terms in ancient times, such as presbyters, elders, etc.), later on higher church officials and ultimately the Pope and the Patriarch. Luther, and most of the Protestant denominations(*) that followed, say it all comes from the Bible alone (and that's perhaps the least irrational of their ideas).

This has let both Roman churches (the Orthodox can be called Roman as they were centered on Constantinople when it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire) more easily adapt doctrine to changes in the wider culture. In the matter of evolution, for example, while it was a heavy blow against all religions, the Catholic church has accepted it in a way few Protestant denomination can approach (though I've met many Catholics who deny it based on the Bible, Pope's opinion be damned).

I don't think this explains everything. I'm sure the styles of ritual and the differences in ritual account for much, too, but I know very little about it. But the source of authority does explain a fair deal.

(*) I considered saying "heresies," but I don't really want to get involved.

It's too late to respond adequately to Face's excellent post but suffice it to say for now that Nareed wrote almost exactly what my first response was going to be. Thanks Nareed, you always amaze.

Quote: FrGamble

It's too late to respond adequately to Face's excellent post but suffice it to say for now that Nareed wrote almost exactly what my first response was going to be. Thanks Nareed, you always amaze.

Thank you.

What amazes me is how much history I've learned in the past 3 years.

Quote: FrGamble

It's too late to respond adequately to Face's excellent post ...

I was reading about this schizm in the Russian orthodox church, in the 17th century, known as the раскол . I don't know if you ever studied them?

Even under Stalin, almost 3 centuries later, the Old Believers still feared persecution.

One family was so afraid of persecution, that they hid in a remote area of Siberia, without human contact to practice their rituals. After 25 years during one brutal winter, the mother starved herself to death to keep her four children alive. After 40 years the remaining 5 family members were discovered by field geologists still living off the land and completely cut off from civilizization. They were completely unaware of WWII. Tragically within a few years one of the geologists gave the flu to the family, and three of the children died in one week.

Happy Solemnity of Mary, the Mother of God to everybody and a Happy New Year!