"Cult of Mary"

Quote: Evenbob

Wow. Just wow, you blew my mind. You have
never heard of William Tyndale, who was
sentenced to be burned at the stake for
translating the Bible into English against
the orders and will of the Pope and clergy?
This is a very well known story, this man is
a hero for what he did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

"Tyndale dedicated his life to translating the Bible into vernacular English, so the laypeople of England could read it for themselves. Everyone was uncomfortable with the Bible being readily accessible to the commoners, because how could the Church then keep power? Not to be deterred, Tyndale went into hiding in Belgium and Germany, evading capture while he translated the New Testament, finishing it in 1525. It was printed en masse and smuggled all over Europe, especially into England, where the Catholics in charge burned a number of them in public.

Six thousand copies were printed. The bishops did everything they could to eradicate the Bibles -- Bishop Tunstall had copies ceremoniously burned at St. Paul's; the archbishop of Canterbury bought up copies to destroy them. 90% of the King James Version of the Bible and 75% of the Revised Standard Version are from the translation of the Bible into English made by William Tyndale.

He was finally caught after some help from a backstabbing friend named Henry Phillips, charged with heresy for no other reason than translating the Bible into English, and strangled, then burned at the stake, on 6 October 1536, in Vilvoorde, outside Brussels. The Catholic Church has never apologized. All subsequent English Bibles, including the King James have borrowed extensively from Tyndale’s Bible."

Padre, you don't know about Tyndale? You don't
know that in 1404 the pope banned any translation
of the NT into English? The Church was frantic that
mass printing of the NT in English would diminish
their power. The printing press was just around the
corner, but even in 1400, books were being printed
by various methods and the Church needed to quash
it in it's infancy. Tyndale was appalled at the priests
lack of knowledge about scripture, most of them
were very bad at interpreting Latin correctly. He
vowed that soon a common plow-boy would know
more about scripture than the average priest. He
paid for that with his life.

Bob, of course I know about Tyndale. It was in 1408 that a law was passed banning unauthorized translations of the Bible in English. This was in response to John Wycliff's attempt to translate the Bible. A couple of things you need to remember here is that the concern for the Church was not translating the Bible into English, it was that anyone could pass off a translation with his or her own agenda forced upon it. This was a pretty chaotic time and there was no internet where you could just check it out and find out how erroneous Wycliff or Tynadale's translations of the Bible were. But have no fear I know it doesn't fit into the myth of Tyndale but there were already approved English versions of parts of the Bible. So the Church was frantic that these faulty new translations with an obvious axe to grind did not mislead people into error. I don't think we need to go into Tyndale's life as a priest too much here, but suffice it to say that I don't doubt that what you mentioned was indeed his unfortunate thinking at the time. Let's see what else, oh it should be pointed out that Henry VIII himself and many other scholars saw the serious problem with his translation at the time. He was arrested by the state and charged with treason as well as heresy. Yeah, overall it is quite a shame the whole deal. Especially because not too long after Tyndale's untimely and tragic death the Church approved the Douay-Rheims English version of the Bible.

I also want to point out that you have complained before of the many different versions or denominations of Christianity. Well, these types of actions by individuals who think they know better than everyone else and want to push their own thoughts and ideas over and above everyone else is how division happens and widens. I so wish the reformers could have been more patient and obedient and I really, really wish the institutional church could have been much more humble and open to the promptings of the Holy Spirit that were no doubt the original source of men like Wycliff and Tyndale's attempt to change things for the better. Unfortunately, because of original sin; a stubborn and powerful church ran up against prideful and radical reformers and the awful and ugly gaping cracks we see today formed.

Face, I wanted to address your post and add a little more to what Nareed has already pointed out.

I couple of times you mentioned the BOOK, the Bible is the ultimate truth, the real teacher. It is indeed the inspired Word of God but the fullness of God's Revelation cannot possibly be contained by letters written on a page. The ultimate truth and the real teacher is the fullness of God's revelation, which you can envision as a three legged stool. The Bible, the Tradition of the Church from which the Bible has come from and which was given to the Apostles from Christ Himself and handed down to today, and finally the Magisterium of the Chruch (which basically means teacher). This Magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit to authentically interpret, guide, and protect both Tradition and the Scriptures.

In some ways you might want to say that in God's revelation there are checks and balances. The Tradition of the Church can never go against the Bible and the Magisterium can never teach anything not supported by the Tradition of the Church or that runs contrary to the Biblical truth.

The Bible does have in a certain sense pride of place in this "trinity" of the sources of revelation. it is permanent and the unchanging rock foundation on which everything else stands. Here also lies its weakness and why in God's Wisdom He gives us our Tradition and Magisterium. A lot of posts recently have been criticizing the Bible for not speaking out more strongly against a form of slavery that did not really even exist in Jesus' time or that Jesus did not give explicit instructions to sail the ocean blue in 92 AD instead of 1492 AD. However, this criticism would only be valid if God had not given us a way to use the Scriptures to respond to modern challenges, sins, or discoveries and this is where the Magisterium of the Church comes into play. We, like God, are not locked up or handcuffed by the Bible. Rather the Bible is the foundation on which our teachings about stem cell research, economic systems, and the entire social justice doctrine of the Church is built upon. What you call fudging is what the Church calls the development of doctrine and it has gone on since the beginning of the Church.

Now it is true that neither I nor Pope Francis are long for this world. However, Pope Francis like the St. Francis before him has changed everything! Believe me there is no going back. One cannot understate the ripple effects for as long as time will exist that Pope Francis will have. You can look back and see the Holy Spirit moving the Church in this direction for many, many years. You can go back to Pius XII or especially John XXIII and Vatican II. Some see Pope Benedict XVI as a slowing down of this movement, but maybe even he himself saw or discerned in prayer that idea himself so he took the extraordinary move of resigning!?! Yep, we have been being prepared for Francis, but I guess nothing could quite prepare everyone for him. With the next Pope we will be even more prepared and ready and begin to work more closely with him to become a poor and evangelizing church to show more clearly the deep love of Jesus Christ for all people. Even the blessed Curia might slowly come along for the ride. It is going to be a great millennium, I hope and pray.

In closing, I'm not quite sure what you mean by and what frustrates you so much about "fluff". I really like Oreo cookies, especially for the creamy center. However I found out that taking apart the cooking and just licking away the center destroys the cookie. I used to put them back together again without the cream and my brother would eat them and complain to my parents that there was no cream in the middle, yuck! I've come to like the whole Oreo cookie, but my favorite part is still the sweet center. The message of Jesus is the sweet awesome center of the Church and I have come to love the package that the Lord Jesus Himself gave us that sweetness in.

Quote: FrGamble

A lot of posts recently have been criticizing the Bible for not speaking out more strongly against a form of slavery that did not really even exist in Jesus' time[..]

Not "a kind" of slavery. Just slavery.

The idea that a human being, can be the property of someone is not challenged in the Bible at all, it is not even questioned.

Naturally so. after all, slavery was a fixture in human societies from as far back as recorded history goes, to as late as the 1880s in Western civilization. In some parts of the world it still exists legally.

God had many opportunities. He could have issued a commandment against it: Thou shall not own other people, be they of your nation or foreigners. He did not. He could have had himself/Jesus preach against it. He/they did not.

Simple question: Why not?

PS The one prominent Christian denomination which did, finally, speak out against Slavery were the Quakers.

Quote: Nareed

God had many opportunities. He could have issued a commandment against it: Thou shall not own other people, be they of your nation or foreigners. He did not. He could have had himself/Jesus preach against it. He/they did not.
.

We keep coming back to this because it's
important. Slavery is insidious no matter
what 'kind' it is. Owning a person for labor
or debt or sex or whatever the reason is a
basic violation of human rights.

In the days of the Bible, this was a widespread
and totally accepted practice. God and Jesus
didn't care about it because they couldn't
imagine life any other way. Just more evidence
that man is god and god is man.

Quote: Evenbob

Just more evidence
that man is god and god is man.

No truer words you have ever written.

Once again I remind you that Jesus did speak against modern day slavery, it is completely foreign to the Scriptures. Even the type of indentured servitude at the time was spoken against. St. Paul wrote an entire Letter to Philemon with its entire undercurrent the unchristian nature of slavery. The salver's bible is very thin indeed and part of the reason the slave owners didn't want anyone to read the Bible on their own.

We also need to remember the response from Nareed and myself to Face's comments that the Bible is not the only authority in the Church. Nothing in Scripture has ever been officially interpreted by the Magisterium of the Church to support what modern man thinks of when it comes to slavery. Again slavery might be yet another example of the mess we get in when we decide to break from the Tradition and authority of the Church and decide for our own benefit, not the glory of God, what the Bible truly says.

Quote: FrGamble

Again slavery might be yet another example of the mess we get in when we decide to break from the Tradition and authority of the Church and decide for our own benefit, not the glory of God, what the Bible truly says.

We're at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia!

Quote: FrGamble

No truer words you have ever written.
.

So you admit god is a figment of mans
imagination, then? Just like we are Santa
and Santa is us?

Quote: FrGamble

Once again I remind you that Jesus did speak against modern day slavery, .

Can you post where in the NT he speaks against it?
I google and google all I find is stuff like this
where he gives actual instructions on how to
beat your slave.

("It is important to realize that the term "servant" or "maid" in the King James Version of the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid".)

Jesus says:

"The servant (slave) who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."

Ha, what are you crazy? Of course God is real how else can you explain creation and the existence of everything, objective moral goods, the amazing nature of human beings as innately religious, with free will and reason and an indomitable spirit of hope? How else can you explain the impact that Jesus Christ has had on human history? Just like you said, there is so much evidence that God is man and man is God in the person of Jesus Christ.