Catholic sacrament of the week.

Quote: Wizard

Seems to me everyone says "creek" on the west coast. I'll give it to you that the hicks in western Maryland say "crick."

It's not a hick thing. We say pop and you
say soda. It's regional.

What the Wiz said. If you told me about the candle and the water and the salt and the flame, and how you needed them all to consecrate your wand, and explained the four elements and how they related to the four directions, I would be interested. It doesn't mean I'm Wiccan, it doesn't mean I believe in Wicca, it just means I find the ritual interesting. This is no different.

I say "crick". I will admit crick and creek are both used in my parts. I will admit I'm a hick.

We also say pop. Everyone says pop until you hit Rochester. Then it's soda. They are mocked for this.

As for a sacrament, I'm out to lunch on this stuff. I of course knew what a baptism was, but not in near enough detail to do what you did.

I hope nobody will complain about thumb-tacking, but I was really hoping Paco would address this question in the OP.

Quote: wizard

A question I've always wondered is why isn't baptism mentioned in the Old Testament, other than a few cases of "washing." It would seem when Jesus was born the practice was suddenly very popular, but when, where, and why did it suddenly become in vogue?

I'm back from my week in a yurt, man it was peaceful and wonderful.

I was happily surprised by this thread. The Sacraments are very interesting and make Catholicism pretty cool. They are visible signs instituted by Christ that bestow the invisible Grace they signify. I always thought God knew that it wasn't just enough to talk about His love and such, but because we are human we needed to feel, touch, taste, smell, and hear the reality of that love using our senses. That is what makes the sacraments so wonderful.

The use of water symbolizes the new life that we are given, as well as the promise of eternal life. It also symbolizes our death to sin and the world, the original baptisms were the dunking kind where it was meant to be like a rising from the tomb experience. Finally water of course symbolizes cleanliness and freedom from sin, original and otherwise. (By the way I still don't see how anyone can doubt the fact that humanity is fallen and carries with it original sin. Take a look around and see so many people doing what they know they shouldn't, so many people hurting each other, so many people full of greed and selfishness - if this is not evidence of original sin I don't know what is.)

Also the symbolism of baptizing as infants is actually when properly understood appealing to protestants. The idea is that we cannot earn our salvation and it is a free gift out of love from God that is literally and figuratively poured over us. We don't have to worry about earning salvation or losing it, you become an adopted child of God through baptism - just sit back and soak in the love. As the Wizard mentioned the other Sacraments of Initiation require your consent and acceptance.

Finally, I guess I should address the question that Face and the Wizard went back and forth on. Yes, women can preform baptism as could literally anyone even a non-baptized atheist. Also the in danger of death requirement might be a little too stringent. If there would not be an ordinary minister of baptism (bishop, priest, or deacon) reasonably available for a time then a lay person can step up and do the baptism. They used to teach nurses in Catholic hospitals how to do emergency baptisms if one was needed. So could Face do a baptism, yes. It would be an extraordinary circumstance however and the baptism would be what we would call valid but illicit. Could Face baptism himself in the very beautiful rite he described, no. However it fulfills exactly what the Wizard rightly considered baptism by desire - in fact just writing such beautiful words and thinking about them might be considered baptism by desire =)

Speaking of baptism by desire I was refreshed to see Nareed talk about a soul as the incorporeal essence of the person. While she believes this spiritual essence dies with the person I thought it a beautiful spiritual thought. A spiritual atheist is like an atheist in a foxhole. However as Nareed has said many times if I believe she has ever said anything in support of God I should think again.

Quote: FrGamble

They used to teach nurses in Catholic hospitals how to do emergency baptisms if one was needed.

Emergency baptism, really. A spiritual matter
of life and death. Depending on a ritual. The
mind boggles..

Quote: FrGamble

The idea is that we cannot earn our salvation and it is a free gift out of love from God that is literally and figuratively poured over us. We don't have to worry about earning salvation or losing it, you become an adopted child of God through baptism -

There are two salient points to be gleaned from this:

1) The implication is that you're "saved" once and forever through baptism, therefore afterwards you can do whatever you want: kill, rape, plunder, wantonly destroy property, torture little children, abuse whomever you want. You were "saved" days after birth, weren't you?

2) I'm certified, 100% God-free :)

Quote:

Speaking of baptism by desire I was refreshed to see Nareed talk about a soul as the incorporeal essence of the person. While she believes this spiritual essence dies with the person I thought it a beautiful spiritual thought.

Thank you.

However:

Quote:

A spiritual atheist is like an atheist in a foxhole. However as Nareed has said many times if I believe she has ever said anything in support of God I should think again.

Here's what I said: "Let me give you a quick rule of thumb: If you think I've said either something positive about religion, or something that justifies religion, then there is a 100.1% chance that you're wrong." IN this case perhaps the fact I said pets have souls should have tipped you off.

Human life relies on non-tangible values. Without them, life is not worth living. Enjoyment, love, admiration, pride, satisfaction and all the other things religion tries its best to stamp out.

Quote: Nareed

There are two salient points to be gleaned from this:

1) The implication is that you're "saved" once and forever through baptism, therefore afterwards you can do whatever you want: kill, rape, plunder, wantonly destroy property, torture little children, abuse whomever you want. You were "saved" days after birth, weren't you?

Let's leave aside the disturbing thought that I mention unconditional love and your first response is using that to get away with murder and rape.

The thing to remember here is that love is a much more powerful motivator to do good and avoid evil than fear is. This is what Evenbob consistently doesn't get about Christianity. If I use fear and punishment as a way to make you do good that only lasts as long as I can enforce it and/or as long as you think you will get caught. It does nothing to really change the heart of the person. God teaches us this pretty much throughout the Old Testament. If you use love as the motivator and remind people that in their very essence they are better than their sins and mistakes - then you have a powerful motivator that does not need hell or the fear of punishment to inspire people to be good and loving. This is the New Testament.

Think of it this way are you truly motivated to be a good person because of the fear of your father's belt or by the making your loving mother proud?

Quote: FrGamble

I'm back from my week in a yurt, man it was peaceful and wonderful.

Welcome back Padre! I thought you had to go to Mongolia to find a yurt. I'd be interested to hear more about your trip.

On a related note, I saw a fictional television show where somebody paid to live at a monastery for a couple weeks or so. It wasn't a vacation but he was expected to do chores and live like everyone else. Have you heard of anybody doing that?

Quote:

I was happily surprised by this thread. The Sacraments are very interesting and make Catholicism pretty cool. They are visible signs instituted by Christ that bestow the invisible Grace they signify. I always thought God knew that it wasn't just enough to talk about His love and such, but because we are human we needed to feel, touch, taste, smell, and hear the reality of that love using our senses. That is what makes the sacraments so wonderful.

As an outsider, I find them pretty cool too.

Quote:

Finally, I guess I should address the question that Face and the Wizard went back and forth on. Yes, women can preform baptism as could literally anyone even a non-baptized atheist.

I think you're referring to the emergency baptisms. However, would I be correct that ceremonial non-emergency baptisms, can be done only by a priest, deacon, or bishop, and those positions are men only?

I was also hoping somebody could address why baptism seemed to suddenly be practiced at the time of Jesus when it was never directly mentioned in the old testament, except for some cases of "washing."

Quote: Wizard

I think you're referring to the emergency baptisms. However, would I be correct that ceremonial non-emergency baptisms, can be done only by a priest, deacon, or bishop, and those positions are men only?

I would agree with you if we could define the phrase "non-emergency baptism" to extend further than just life or death situations. I imagine there are many places in the Middle East for example where having a bishop, priest, or deacon might be a monthly or longer occurrence. In these situations a child could be baptized by anyone.

Quote:

I was also hoping somebody could address why baptism seemed to suddenly be practiced at the time of Jesus when it was never directly mentioned in the old testament, except for some cases of "washing."

You are right in that outside of ritual purifications, which even predate Judiaism, there is not a precedent for the Christian understanding and rite of baptism. I had a couple of baptisms today after the Masses and your question made me think of the prayer that we use to bless the water. I think it shows that the use of water, not necessarily the washing itself, is what is prefigured in the Old Testament.

Quote: Prayer over the water

Father, you give us grace through sacramental signs, which tell us of the wonders of your unseen power. In baptism we use your gift of water, which you have made a rich symbol of the grace you give us in this sacrament. At the very dawn of creation your Spirit breathed on the waters, making them the wellspring of all holiness. The waters of the great flood you made a sign of the waters of baptism, that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.

Through the waters of the Red Sea you led Israel out of slavery, to be an image of God's holy people, set free from sin by baptism. In the waters of the Jordan your Son was baptized by John and anointed with the Spirit. Your Son willed that water and blood should flow from his side as he hung upon the cross.

After his resurrection he told his disciples: "Go out and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Father, look now with love upon your Church, and unseal for her the fountain of baptism. By the power of the Spirit give to the water of this font the grace of your Son. You created man in your own likeness: cleanse him from sin in a new birth to innocence by water and the Spirit.

The celebrant touches the water with his right hand and continues:

We ask you, Father, with your Son to send the Holy Spirit upon the water of this font. May all who are buried with Christ in the death of baptism rise also with him to newness of life. We ask this through Christ our Lord.

All: Amen.

Is there a different prayer for the holy water used for everyday church purposes?