Who are happier -- Christians or Atheists?

Quote: FrGamble

Here you seem to be saying that you would be giving this kidney as a non-sacrifice and it would be a horrible experience all around, yet you would still do it. In doing this it is of great value to you, yet awful and difficult through and through.

What do you expect me to say? imagine this:

I'm so happy your kidney failed and you're miserable and dying! I'm so glad you're dependent on dialysis and drugs and are having a horrible time! It's so great I get to undergo major surgery and will have lots of pain and risk complications and long term problems! We're so lucky!

No. I would regard the whole thing as a terrible ordeal, because that's what it is. I would do what I could to support, console and cheer up my friend. Point out dialysis, bad as it is, will sustain him until I get tested and see if I can donate my kidney. That there's nothing to worry or fret over, that everything will be ok. We'd make plans for afterwards, too, when indeed there will be a chance for joy and happiness.

The cost to myself is my business. I wouldn't burden him with it, and if he asked I'd assure him it's ok.

But if you expect me to be happy my friend is in trouble and I'll undergo risks and all the rest, I would have to wonder what kind of person you are.

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So I guess my question is, if someone said to you, "I love you, but it is really difficult and awful to do so, but nevertheless I will continue to love you because you are of great value to me." Would that be more meaningful and attractive to you than saying, "I am willing to sacrifice for you out of love."

1) What's this thing where you keep asking the same question and expecting a different answer?

2) You do not understand what love is. I'd never tell someone I love that loving him is awful. Hard, maybe, if it were. But how can love be awful?

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If it is the latter, then could you help me to understand what would make the difference in someone's mentality between seeing their giving up a kidney to save a life as either a non-sacrifice or as a sacrifice?

It's neither.

I made a mistake.

Morally it would be wrong to accept a sacrifice, regardless of the source of what the donor thinks he's doing. I want to think that's what I'd do, even in the face of a life and death situation. But one cannot be sure what one will do until it happens.

The one near situation I faced was several years ago when I was robbed at gun point. I surprised myself by not being very scared, and by how clearly I thought. I did hand the thug the money I had in my an envelope in my hand, but I told him I had nothing more. He checked and missed it, and went away leaving 1/3 of the booty behind.

I must add that I decided the gun wasn't loaded, or wasn't working. But I was far from certain of that. If I had been, I'd have walked away with all the money unstolen.

Earlier in our discussion you reacted viciously to the notion of sacrificing for a loved one because you seemed to think it meant that loving that person was a difficult thing or a chore. You said in response to the example of the mother who "sacrifices" for their child by getting up in the middle of the night that you thought I was proposing that she wishes she never had children. You completely missed the point, but I thought I understood you at that moment to think that sacrifice, a negative for you, was something that was considered hard or challenging. So I'm confused, but pleasantly surprised that in this case of a non-sacrifice, a positive in your book, you freely acknowledge that it would be hard and terrible (a synonym for awful by the way) for everyone involved but you would still go through with giving the kidney.

So I was wrong, in your worldview you can still choose to "non-sacrifice" for someone even if it involves great risk, pain, or discomfort to you.



My point about love is that when it is deep enough it can make even the most hard and difficult things seem lighter and easier just because the beloved is there and willing to do anything to help. Everything seems like it is going to be okay when the loved one is there, such is the power of true love.



I'm sorry can you explain to me again why giving a kidney to save a life for a friend is a positive thing and doing the same thing for someone you don't know is a negative?

Quote: FrGamble

My point about love is that when it is deep enough it can make even the most hard and difficult things seem lighter and easier just because the beloved is there and willing to do anything to help.

There would be nothing light or easy in donating an organ to a friend. It's not a sacrifice. It's not done "gladly" and there's nothing good about the whole situation.

Note, too, I wouldn't sacrifice for a friend, either. Suppose A's heart were failing. I wouldn't donate my heart to save him.

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I'm sorry can you explain to me again why giving a kidney to save a life for a friend is a positive thing and doing the same thing for someone you don't know is a negative?

Put in terms you will understand: what's in it for me?

Quote: Nareed

Put in terms you will understand: what's in it for me?

I'm flabbergasted and somewhat speechless. I don't know if I'm more troubled by this being your determination of what is good or bad or by you not seeing that helping to save a life is a good for you and the one who is saved.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm flabbergasted and somewhat speechless. I don't know if I'm more troubled by this being your determination of what is good or bad or by you not seeing that helping to save a life is a good for you and the one who is saved.

Would you give one of your kidneys to a stranger?

To clarify my position:

While I do recognize a value in everyone's life, a stranger's life is only of little value to me. Naturally this means I'm of little value to nearly everyone else, too. I wouldn't expect a stranger to give up an organ for me, any more than I would give one up for them.

A friend has a much greater value to me. A dear, close friend that much more. For them I'd be willing to give up a kidney.

Clear?

Yes much more clear.

The only thing I would mention is that a stranger's life is in the big picture equal to yours, as is every human life. In our certain circumstances we might right now not be thinking about a stranger who lives in India, and so we can say subjectively that to me they might have little value at the moment. However, when we think about them they regain their equality with us and when we get to know them we recognize the equal value they always possessed.

For a moment I thought you were saying that you determined whose life had intrinsic value. Value to you personally makes more sense and I recognize that this can change our behaviors and actions towards people.

Quote: FrGamble

The only thing I would mention is that a stranger's life is in the big picture equal to yours, as is every human life.

As a point of law, this is so.

Personally, no one's life is more valuable to me than my own. It cannot be otherwise.

It can be otherwise; ask a parent or ask Jesus.

Quote: FrGamble

It can be otherwise; ask a parent or ask Jesus.

Jesus has been too dead for many centuries to have something useful to contribute to any current conversation.

I may tackle the rest later.

I'll ask Him for you.