Who are happier -- Christians or Atheists?

January 26th, 2015 at 1:38:17 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10375
Quote: FrGamble
Don't worry I don't feel bad..


So you admit you can't explain why it's
called a sacrifice when it clearly is not.
My wife's sisters get weepy when they
talk about Jesus sacrifice on the cross.
If I ask them what it means, they spout
a Bible verse. If I probe further, they get
glass eyed and move away.

Edited later:

Holy crap. I googled this and had no idea
what an issue it is. Nobody can explain
what either god or Jesus sacrificed. It's
just assumed a sacrifice was involved. That's
not quite good enough. Also, the hubris of
a sin free person 'sacrificing' himself for
sinners is a bit much. It would have been
much more meaningful if god had a really
bad sinner sacrifice himself for the sins of
mankind. To have his son do it, who knew
perfectly well he would rise from the dead,
is more of an 'adventure' than a sacrifice.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 26th, 2015 at 3:37:35 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4926
Quote: Nareed
I chose this because it benefited me most.


Subjectively it did benefit you most, because you obviously loved and cared for this person. Objectively, going under the knife and giving up a kidney was not the most beneficial thing for you. You give voice to a profound mystery. Often sacrifice is not looked at as suffering or harmful for the person who is sacrificing. We shouldn't go out and sacrifice just for the sake of doing it. This is insane and hurtful and masochistic. When we willing and freely choose to help another without counting the cost because we want to it (and even see it as beneficial to ourselves) is close to the definition of love

Quote:
Just what do you take me for?


A very good friend and person.
January 26th, 2015 at 3:54:32 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4926
Evenbob let me try to address your concerns about the Sacrifice of Jesus.

Sin is like cancer. It is serious and it destroys the possibility of real peace, joy, and happiness. It is a profound flaw in human nature, not original to us but like a hereditary disease. We are not personally responsible for the entry of sin into the world. It is beyond us. Therefore, we are in a position to fix it or eradicate it. We are made sinners by someone else, our redemption is wrought through someone else. To use the example Nareed recently gave of her desire to give a kidney to a dying friend - God knows that we need more than just a kidney. We need a blood transfusion and a complete overhaul of our whole body and soul. He offers His body and blood for us as a free gift to free us form a curse we never wanted. To tie in our discussion on the Eucharist, this is why consuming His real body and blood is so important. It transforms us like the bread and wine are transformed. We join in a mystical union with Jesus who heals us of our sinful cancer.

Concerning your strange idea that the death of a bad sinner would be our salvation; that would be nothing more than trying to cure with tainted blood. In regards to your insistence that Jesus knew He would rise from the dead and that He was on some tourist adventure I can only point you to His words from the cross, "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me."
January 26th, 2015 at 3:58:46 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10375
Quote: FrGamble
He offers His body and blood for us as a free gift to free us form a curse we never wanted."


But what did he sacrifice to do this? Me,
along with many others, don't see any
sacrifice at all, for reasons I already
mentioned. A sacrifice involves actually
giving up something that means a lot
lot to you, for the greater good. Like
the soldier and the grenade.

God and Jesus sacrificed nothing. They
carried out a preplanned mission, there
was no sacrifice involved. Nor did you
mention any above.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 26th, 2015 at 4:06:44 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4926
Jesus was fully God and fully man. He sacrificed His very self on the cross. Like the man jumping on the grenade He gave His life to save others, can you ask anything more?

[edit: what is more because He was God He is not merely saving us temporally from death but saving us eternally from death. His sacrifice was even greater.]
January 26th, 2015 at 5:01:20 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10375
Quote: FrGamble
can you ask anything more?


Yeah, we can ask for an actual sacrifice. A
sacrifice means you give up something that
means a LOT to you, for the greater good.

Jesus was man and god (supposedly), so he
gave up nothing. Where is the sacrifice
when you know the ending will turn out well.

Nope, this is more of a stage play, with moral
lessons, and a happy ending. The lack of any
real sacrifice on Jesus/gods part is obvious.

From what I'm reading, this is the Achilles Heel
of the religion. Many people see no sacrifice
at all, just like me.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 26th, 2015 at 5:49:22 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 306
Posts: 10241
Quote: FrGamble
Subjectively it did benefit you most, because you obviously loved and cared for this person.


No. Objectively it benefitted me because I loved him and cared for him.


Quote:
Objectively, going under the knife and giving up a kidney was not the most beneficial thing for you.


In the abstract, no. In the concrete occasion I considered it, it was. The alternative is to lose a dear and close friend.


Quote:
When we willing and freely choose to help another without counting the cost because we want to it (and even see it as beneficial to ourselves) is close to the definition of love


Oh, I consider every cost. Always. In an emergency I wouldn't, because there would be no time to do so. But at every other time it's a very important consideration. Not only monetary costs, but physical and emotional costs as well.

And I don't "see" it as beneficial to myself, it IS beneficial to myself. Look, if I didn't love A, I wouldn't offer him a kidney. It's not like loaning him $20 or paying for his coffee. It's a major undertaking on my part. It's not something I'd do for anyone who asked.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
January 26th, 2015 at 6:07:40 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4926
Quote: Evenbob
Yeah, we can ask for an actual sacrifice. A
sacrifice means you give up something that
means a LOT to you, for the greater good.


Giving up your life is not a LOT to you?

Quote:
Where is the sacrifice
when you know the ending will turn out well.


How do you know that Jesus knew how things would turn out well? He had great faith and trust in His heavenly Father but you seem to be forgetting what the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity sacrificed in becoming incarnate, fully human. His sacrifice began long before the cross. It began when He descended from the Heavens and was born in a lowly stable and laid in a manger.


Quote:
Many people see no sacrifice
at all, just like me.


You know your Achilles heel and maybe that is why you refuse to answer why you diminish the sacrifice of Christ, yet would not be so quick as to diminish a gift of a million dollars from a billionaire. You are being inconsistent and dishonest just to try to prove a point that holds no weight logically or theologically.
January 26th, 2015 at 6:09:46 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4926
Quote: Nareed
No. Objectively it benefitted me because I loved him and cared for him.


If someone who did not know your relationship objectively looked at the situation would they see it that way.


Quote:
And I don't "see" it as beneficial to myself, it IS beneficial to myself. Look, if I didn't love A, I wouldn't offer him a kidney. It's not like loaning him $20 or paying for his coffee. It's a major undertaking on my part. It's not something I'd do for anyone who asked.


So it would be a sacrifice if you gave a kidney to a stranger?
January 26th, 2015 at 6:42:15 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10375
Quote: FrGamble
that is why you refuse to answer why you diminish the sacrifice of Christ


You never asked me why I diminish it.
I don't believe there was a real sacrifice,
that's why. As I said before, the fix was in,
and Jesus knew the happy outcome.
He hinted at it all thru the NT.

Jesus sacrifice was like somebody promising
to forgive our debts by taking all his
money out of the bank on Friday, burying it, and
then putting it back in the bank on Sunday.

"So the total of Jesusís only claim to sacrifice is pain and anguish. Now, Iím not saying being crucified is a walk in the park. But really? For the God of the universe, a finite amount of human pain followed by being raised into glory in the sure knowledge that the battle for the universe is won? That hardly qualifies as an epic sacrifice.."
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.