Who are happier -- Christians or Atheists?

Quote: FrGamble

You don't seem to be grasping how powerful and true this seminal moment

And you don't seem to grasp that to many,
including 1/3 of the clergy of the Church
of England, that it probably didn't happen.
You use the wrong logic. Instead of actual
proof, of which there is none except hearsay,
you instead always point to: It must be true
because so many people believe it! People
die for it, it has to be true.

That is not proof. And without proof, it's
a myth. So what? Myths are fine, religious
myths exist to teach people, to give them
hope. That they're true or not is beside the
point.

I'm sure you know that Buddha is a myth,
he never existed as a person. Does that
matter to Buddhists? Not a bit. The religion
is centered on his sacred teachings, it
doesn't need an actual historical figure to
make them relevant.

It's disturbing that Christianity needs to
believe everything the NT says, like it's
infallible. It really takes away from the
message of Jesus, which is a pity.

Quote: Evenbob

And you don't seem to grasp that to many,
including 1/3 of the clergy of the Church
of England, that it probably didn't happen.

So later on you are going to complain that I use the number of people, billions by the way, to show support for an argument. Isn't that what you are attempting to do here with around 20 people?

Quote:

You use the wrong logic. Instead of actual
proof, of which there is none except hearsay,
you instead always point to: It must be true
because so many people believe it! People
die for it, it has to be true.

Not only did so many people believe it, die for it, spread the good news, but it still exists just as strong today. This is the very definition of truth. It convicts people to their core and always prevails over persecution, ignorance, and time.

Quote:

It's disturbing that Christianity needs to
believe everything the NT says, like it's
infallible. It really takes away from the
message of Jesus, which is a pity.

Disturbing to you perhaps because it forces you to recognize this is nor some made up myth or fairy tale, but the real deal. This is precisely why I believe Christianity is so credible, because it is not fantasy but real historical truth. This happened, here on earth, we have records, witnesses, and it still is really truly impacting us today so many years removed. It adds to the message of Jesus and your sly attempts to equate Him and His teachings to a morality play is the true pity.

It might be a bad analogy, but you strike me as someone who is looking at the crater and impact of a bomb that exploded a while ago and you are saying, "well since I don't see any physical evidence of a bomb you have no proof that anything happened here."

Quote: FrGamble

Not only did so many people believe it, die for it, spread the good news, but it still exists just as strong today. This is the very definition of truth.

Since when does a bunch of people believing
something mean it's true. Are you sure you
want go this route? We can go into the past
and find a hundred things most people
believed to be true that absolutely wasn't.

Quote: FrGamble

because it is not fantasy but real historical truth.

Jesus dying is historical truth, the rest
isn't. Just because your Church says it
again and again, without actual proof
it's just meaningless words.

Quote: FrGamble

It might be a bad analogy, but you strike me as someone who is looking at the crater and impact of a bomb that exploded a while ago and you are saying, "well since I don't see any physical evidence of a bomb you have no proof that anything happened here."

At least with a crater you have physical
evidence that something happened.
You have something better than people
claiming they saw a crater 2000 years
ago, with nothing to back it up.

Quote: Evenbob

Since when does a bunch of people believing
something mean it's true.

It doesn't mean it's true, but is evidence towards its credibility.

Quote:

Jesus dying is historical truth, the rest
isn't. Just because your Church says it
again and again, without actual proof
it's just meaningless words.

Why are you so sure of Jesus' death being a historical truth? What other sources outside the Bible give you this information and when was it written?

Quote:

At least with a crater you have physical
evidence that something happened.
You have something better than people
claiming they saw a crater 2000 years
ago, with nothing to back it up.

Do you doubt the impact Jesus Christ has had and continues to have in our world? His impact is more powerful than anything this world has ever seen. Isn't that evidence that something has happened, something powerful?

Quote: FrGamble

Why are you so sure of Jesus' death being a historical truth?

Do you doubt the impact Jesus Christ has had and continues to have in our world?

Read Bill O'Reilly's book, he goes into the
proof that exists.

Do you doubt the impact that Buddha had
and continues to have in the world? And
Buddha is 100% myth, he never existed.

Wikipedia. "Historicity of Jesus"

An interesting read. It supports EvenBob's opinions more than I thought it would.

And you are also correct, FrGamble. There is very little outside of the bible itself that documents Jesus at all. I thought there was more.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you doubt the impact Jesus Christ has had and continues to have in our world?

As someone who values philosophy, shouldn't you be basing your defense of Jesus on his ideas rather than on whether or not he resurrected?

"Historicity of the Bible" is another good read.

Quote: Nareed

As someone who values philosophy, shouldn't you be basing your defense of Jesus on his ideas rather than on whether or not he resurrected?

These are my thoughts also. The Buddha said
many wise things, what does it matter if he
really lived or not. We know Jesus lived and
had a ministry, why isn't that enough. So
what if the resurrection is a spiritual idea
and never really happened, what does that
change. It's living your life that's important,
not what happens after you die. You never
worry about where were before you were
born, why worry about death.

Dalex's suggestions from Wikipedia were interesting and helpful. Even already knowing much of what is included it gives you food for thought. It seems that the two lynchpins of Jesus' life that scholars are almost unanimous in accepting as true are the Baptism by John the Baptist and the Crucifixion. This has been a great source of prayer for me since I read it and will no doubt find itself in a homily soon. Both events are connected by forgiveness of sins, which was the point of John's Baptism of repentance and the Christ's Crucifixion. Jesus went through the baptism being sinless as a sign that He takes on the nature of our sinfulness so that He can ultimately defeat it on the cross. Also Baptism itself has always been looked at as a dying and rising again. Hence, being plunged into the water three times. We die to self and rise anew. So connection these two undeniable historical parts of the historical Jesus' life is in many ways a summary of His mission and points to the reality of the Resurrection.

Another thing I learned is that besides Josephus and Tacitus there is also the Mishnah and Talmud as external texts referencing the reality of Jesus and His ministry. Obviously these two Jewish texts are critical of Jesus, but it is how they are critical of Jesus that gives us more food for thought. They claim He was a sorcerer or magician. Why would these early century Jewish texts criticize Jesus in this way if the miracles attributed to Him were not true?

It was also good to reaffirm the extraordinary manuscript attestation of the New Testament, it is unlike any writing in all of ancient history. It continues to amaze me how many copies and texts we have of it, even from so long ago. What were the numbers some 10,000 texts and coming in at a distant second was the Illiad with 683?!? The sheer volume of texts from that early time period is again evidence something amazing happened.

The Old Testament debate between minimalists and maximalists was also interesting. I think there is a lot of truth in that quote, "Today we are all minimalists."