Science and God

Quote: Nareed

IMO the root of that lies in the idea that belief is necessary for "salvation."

Close enough for government work. Perhaps I enjoy Buddhism so much because I actually believe that principle. Not the ethereal part, nor the reincarnation part, but the salvation of your present self. Perhaps that's the big distinction I draw.

Christianity (simplified) seems to state you should be good 1) to not offend your supernatural daddy, and 2) so you may receive the gift of heaven. While this list isn't all inclusive, those are two HUGE parts if the religion, neither of which are close to believable for me.

Buddhism, for me, has helped me find peace right now . Not for some questionable reward in the "after", but for a reward right now. Oneness. Peace within self. All with no pressure. No "do so or else", no performing odd rituals that cut into my fishing time (=p), no casting judgements on others who don't follow this path.

Perhaps we're looking through a different lense as a result of me actually believing many of the tenants. But I don't see the same level of dictating what one should or shouldn't do. Rather than me spend all day trying to explain, let me instead just ask - when was the last time you were persecuted, pressured, or otherwise offended by a Buddhist?

Quote: Wizard

Can you elaborate on how the Mormon faith is any less scientific than Catholicism?

There is no evidence that Jesus ever made it to America and no record of the albino tribe of Native Americans that He preached to who were then all killed. The Joseph Smith story is full of problems in regards to the finding of the golden tablets, the method of translation, the ability to duplicate the translation, the disappearance of the tablets, etc. This is just trying to strictly answer you question concerning what is fundamental to their beliefs that is not supported by science. I am not going into the problems one might have with their theology.

Quote: FrGamble

There is no evidence that Jesus ever made it to America and no record of the albino tribe of Native Americans that He preached to who were then all killed.

It's so easy to see when it's their beliefs, isn't it?

I've been away for a couple days leading a retreat, looks like some continuing good conversation. I'd like to address just a couple of things:


Can we put to bed this silly notion that you can't prove unicorns don't exist? First of all I find it strange that someone could boldly proclaim that you can't prove unicorns don't exist and then in the next breath say unequivocally that God does not exist. Bob's statement about unicorns make him agnostic towards the belief in unicorns but atheistic towards the existence of God. Very strange indeed. Secondly, you can make a pretty good argument that unicorns don't exist. Does anyone, besides three year old girls, really truly believe they exist? That is a pretty good sign they don't. Is there any credible history of their existence? Any fossil records? All this makes me confident that unicorns do not exist. I'm still waiting for some evidence that someone could use to say that God does not exist.


Christianity does make predictions, very accurate ones at that, concerning human nature. We all fall, make regrettable mistakes, fail to live up to the standards even we ourselves set up, we all sin. Yet we also are so good and have an interior desire to be better and strive to be good, kind, and loving. We implicitly sense and desire in ourselves and in our world something that we have never experienced, but is like a long forgotten memory that echoes in our soul - eternal justice, ultimate peace, and perfect love.


Finally, I am concerned and puzzled by the insistence that religion is somehow about control and/or power. Jesus Christ specifically came saying I have come to serve and not be served. He says the greatest among you is to be the least and the servant of all. In my experience I spend my life in service for my parishioners. I don't begrudge not having a family so I can be more available to them. I rejoice and am happy to do whatever they want me to if it will help them to grow closer to God. There is no quid pro quo and I go willingly to the sick bed of someone who doesn't put money in the collection. I live to serve them and all people who are in need. I fail to see what is powerful or controlling about that.

Quote: FrGamble

you can make a pretty good argument that unicorns don't exist.

Yes indeed, but no proof. You can make an
argument that god exists or doesn't, no
proof there either. Unicorns make more sense
than god does.

Quote:

I go willingly to the sick bed of someone who doesn't put money in the collection. I live to serve them and all people who are in need. I fail to see what is powerful or controlling about that.

That's commendable, but that's certainly not
all you do. That's what Mother Theresa supposedly
did all day every day. Yet it turns out she was a
fraud, she was rarely there, she was out raising
money for the Church for decades. Her minions
did the attending to the sick and dying, or so
they have testified.

Quote: Face

Buddhism, for me, has helped me find peace right now . Not for some questionable reward in the "after", but for a reward right now. Oneness. Peace within self. All with no pressure. No "do so or else",

That's what's missing from this discussion
on Christianity. The 'do so or else'
attitude. Christians are very observant
of each other to make sure everybody
is 'toeing the line'. The church leaders
are especially quick to correct people
in the flock if they stray from the path.

You don't get that in the Eastern religions.
A Zen master will tell you he has nothing
to teach, he can only point you in the right
direction. Maybe you get it, maybe you
don't. What's the rush.

Quote: FrGamble

Christianity does make predictions, very accurate ones at that, concerning human nature.

Those are observations, colored with theology. Many people, before and after Jesus, have made similar ones, in religious and secular contexts.

In science a prediction isn't an attempt at predicting the future. Rather when one understands something, one can see connections to other things. Thus Newton's theory of gravitation does not specifically predict when a comet will return to the environs of Earth. But Halley could see the connection between gravity and comets, and predict when a particular comet would return. A prediction can be contained in a theory, too. Darwin's theory predicts intermediate fossils.

Religion doesn't do this.

Quote:

Finally, I am concerned and puzzled by the insistence that religion is somehow about control and/or power.

I grant you it may not be so intrinsically, but it's how many religions have been used. not just by secular authorities, but by ecclesiastical ones as well. I refer you to Ambrose of Milan who held the strings on Theodosius, among many others.

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Jesus Christ specifically came saying I have come to serve and not be served.

Few movements remain true to their founder once he dies.

Quote:

I live to serve them and all people who are in need. I fail to see what is powerful or controlling about that.

I say good for you for living up to your convictions.

But your actions do not represent Christianity as a whole any more than those of Richelieu did in his time.

I'm having a hard time deciding which statement is more offensive, ignorant, or just silly.

Quote: Evenbob

Unicorns make more sense
than god does.

or

Quote:

Yet it turns out [Mother Teresa] was a
fraud,

Concerning proof I thought we have all pretty much agreed that you don't need proof to believe in something. We need evidence and experience that compounded together make it reasonable to believe without a doubt that your spouse loves you for example. You can't prove it, but you believe it. There are precious few things in life you can prove outside of the field of mathematics.

Quote: Nareed

Those are observations, colored with theology. Many people, before and after Jesus, have made similar ones, in religious and secular contexts.

In science a prediction isn't an attempt at predicting the future. Rather when one understands something, one can see connections to other things.

Religion doesn't do this.

I think this is what Christianity does. It understands something about the human person and can therefore using this knowledge predicts our behavior and cultural successes and failures. If you read Paul VI's Humane Vitae you can see exactly what I am talking about.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm having a hard time deciding which statement is more offensive,

Can't prove she was a fraud, but the evidence
certainly points there. She had some kind of
sick 'suffering is beautiful' mentality that made
her not care for the dying like they deserved.

I can link to a dozen articles on this, some by
women who worked for her, but you won't
read them, what's the point.