Quiz -- Which was the original flag of the Confederate States of America?

The Scottish Flag is a white cross on a blue background. The Confederate Flag of the Army of North Virginia is a Blue Cross with a white outline on a red background. So for starters, it's a different St. Andrew's Cross.

The Saltire is used in many places, in many flags (Nova Scotia, Miami Dade County, The Russian Navy, Jamaican national flag).

Quote: TheCesspit

The Saltire is used in many places, in many flags (Nova Scotia, Miami Dade County, The Russian Navy, Jamaican national flag).

Just for the record, I was being sarcastic, and imitating a person undergoing an unthinking knee-jerk reaction.

Evidently the Saltire was chosen without regard to making a statement about the contribution of the Scots-Irish in particular to the Conf. side as many would have it. However, it is pretty challenging to look up what the Saltire was all about without coming across origins linked to the St. Andrew's cross. I have to think this linkage was considered appropriate but have to admit that seems to be unsupported conjecture.

Oddly enough, the record indicates there was an element of appeasement to non-Christians in the Saltire decision. A guy would be looked at mighty strangely today to say "I agree, take it down" and then interject "those Jews!" during a conversation about, say, taking down the battle flag in SC.

Quote: wikipedia article

According to Coski, the "Saint Andrew's Cross" (also used on the flag of Scotland as a white saltire on a blue field), had no special place in Southern iconography at the time, and if Miles had not been eager to conciliate the Southern Jews his flag would have used the traditional upright

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Battle_flag

Quote: AZDuffman

If you will notice, it is a combo of a Rebel Flag and a "Don't Tread on Me" flag. Consider me a sympathizer of good, hardworking southerners who are looked down upon by the elite in this nation.

If that's the avatar you like fine.
I certainly don't look down on southern culture.
Southern culture is quite diverse.
I am a huge fan of the Blues.
I love the blues
Its the foundation of rock music.
Many southern bands, such as the Allman Brothers, that I've seen about 30 times, are deeply prideful of the south.
They also have a deep respect for the southern black blues men that came before them.
Southern blues, hardworking raw music from the soul.
Hearing Robert Johnson still gives me the chills.
The Allmans always played some blues at their concerts and showing pictures of their southern black heroes on the screen backing.

Here is a great proud southerner Greg Allman on the flag
"Well, I was taught how to play music by these very, very kind older black men. My best friend in the world is a black man. If people are gonna look at that flag and think of it as representing slavery, then I say burn every one of them."

Southern culture is diverse, hardly looked down upon. Just the opposite , theses old southern blues guys are my heroes. The Allman Brothers Band are my heroes. Greg is a hero. I love southern culture.

Quote: AZDuffman

If you will notice, it is a combo of a Rebel Flag and a "Don't Tread on Me" flag

Sober, I'm a bit more reluctant to discuss this. I'll just say it seems to me there are 3 main types that fly the flag today.

*Those who know the flag offends, but hope to somehow change that by flying it respectfully.

*Those who know the flag offends, but can't stand being told they shouldn't fly it since it represents history. A subtle difference from type one.

*Those guys who just want to get in your face exactly because it offends people; sometimes they are indeed white supremacists or whatever. Sometimes they are just people who want to be obnoxious.

AZ seems to be some 4th type, I have to think very few use the flag from his motivations, which he probably should expand on. Any 'type' he belongs to I think is not a main type.

Quote: Greg Allman

(purportedly)If people are gonna look at that flag and think of it as representing slavery, then I say burn every one of them.

I would be ready to argue that the flag can and does represent something else, something respectable, certainly not "slavery" to the people flying it IF the history of it was merely that it originated in the ACW on the Confederate side. Unfortunately, that is not the entire history of it. People who object to it can legitimately say that the use of it by the KKK and other hate groups has made it impossible for them to think of it as a quaint historical artifact. It's use generally by those opposing the civil rights movement [waving it at rallies etc.] was bad enough. The hate groups use finalized what the symbol means to way, way too many people.

By the way groups like Sons of Confederate Veterans have long decried the use of the flag by hate groups, have done so from the beginning of this type of use.

I was a type 2 for a while, in my younger days. I didn't fly a flag but used the symbol on various things that my associates would see, not the public generally. I felt I would always have the ability to explain why I was using it. As time has gone on, I feel that the symbol really has solidified as a symbol of bigotry - I just never use it now.

Quote: odiousgambit

Sober, I'm a bit more reluctant to discuss this. I'll just say it seems to me there are 3 main types that fly the flag today.

*Those who know the flag offends, but hope to somehow change that by flying it respectfully.

*Those who know the flag offends, but can't stand being told they shouldn't fly it since it represents history. A subtle difference from type one.

*Those guys who just want to get in your face exactly because it offends people; sometimes they are indeed white supremacists or whatever. Sometimes they are just people who want to be obnoxious.

AZ seems to be some 4th type, I have to think very few use the flag from his motivations, which he probably should expand on. Any 'type' he belongs to I think is not a main type.

I said ask here and I will explain, you asked here, so I am a man of my word:

Yes, I am probably a 4th type. I will say I have some traits of 1 and 2. However, if it was not for the events of the last month I might have just skipped the avatar, or used the regular Navy Jack DTOM. A few years back I might have had the Steelers logo, but the NFL has both become a joke to me and I have just watched so much less football the last 3 years I have lost interest there. But back to the story.

Before these events I would not have had the avatar because, well I am not from the south. Southerners had relatives who died under that flag so I had a respect for that. I am beyond the age where I am going to show myself a fan of "The Dukes of Hazard" or any number of southern rock/outlaw country bands. You could file it under, "it is cool when I am in the south or listening to Skynard, but I have a life."

Then we had the church shooting and then we had calls to "ban" the flag, From pure idiots who did not even know what it looks like:



Now, lets look at the reactions to crimes--

A muslim shoots up a military base, we hear a rush to say, "THAT IS NOT ALL MUSLIMS!"
An illegal alien rapes and kills we hear, "THAT IS NOT ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS!"
A black commits a crime we hear, "THAT DOES NOT REPRESENT ALL BLACKS!"
Jerry Sandusky rapes a 17 year old and we hear, "THAT IS NOT ALL GAYS!"

A nutjob shoots up a church and we hear, "WE HAVE TO BAN THE CONFEDERATE FLAG, WE HAVE TO GET RID OF CONDEDERATE MEMORIALS, AND WHITE AMERICA HAS TO OWN UP TO RACISM!"

All I want is the same consideration for the hardworking southerner who sees this flag as part of their heritage as the other groups get. Remember all the facebook gay-flag layovers people had after the SCOTUS ruling? Most were not gay but supportive? Well, I am not southern but am supportive.

Then there is the simple problem of banning words and symbols. This is dangerous stuff, because once started it never ends. It is thought control. Time for a thought experiment. Picture a chocolate lab crossing a road. Now ask yourself how you would describe this if there was no word to describe the color of the dog, no word for "dog," and no word for ""road." How would you do it?

Banning words and symbols is about banning thought. Part of the idea of banning the Confederate Flag is about stomping out Southern Culture. The same people who are calling for a ban to the flag also dislike the more religious, more personal responsibility, and harder work culture of the South. Call me as crazy as you like, but look at some college speech codes. "Land of Opportunity" has been called offensive.

I have sort of written here before as some have noticed, I think our society is a lost cause and we are headed for major problems. I do not think the USA will be here in 50 years. Probably nothing I can do about it. At the least I can make a statement.

Quote: odiousgambit

(purportedly Greg Allman said )"'If people are gonna look at that flag and think of it as representing slavery, then I say burn every one of them"

purportedly?

I'm a huge Greg Allman fan. He's written lots of great songs.
I absolutely adore the whole history of Southern black blues.
Southern culture totally rocks.
Ask Eric Clapton, all these old black blues men from the south, his heroes. He built his career on their music.

All my left leaning fans love southern culture. We understand the roots of rock. We are music fans. We are blues fans.

The Greg Allman interview I quoted was from a few days ago.
As soon as I heard about it, I read it. I'm a fan. Wasn't looking for flag stuff, I'm a huge Greg Allman fan. Just saw the Greg Allman band a few months ago.
Here is the complete interview from a few days ago

http://radio.com/2015/07/20/gregg-allman-on-his-new-band-the-allman-brothers-band-and-the-confederate-flag/

Quote: AZDuffman

IThen we had the church shooting and then we had calls to "ban" the flag, From pure idiots who did not even know what it looks like:

I certainly do not believe the flag should be banned.
If the State capital wont fly my Grateful Dead flag, they should not fly the confederate flag.
No way should the flag be banned.
You have rights. If you want to spend your money and display it on your property, you have that right.
You want to use it as an avatar, I am good with it.
Its just that it should not be prominently displayed using our money (taxes) on our (public) property.

Its just that my heroes, southern blues men, hate it. I love these guys.
I love southern culture. I love southern music.

Quote: terapined

Its just that it should not be prominently displayed using our money (taxes) on our (public) property.

It is a part of history where displayed. Besides, the government has no problem spending tax money to display and fund things many people find offensive. Confederate Soldiers are USA soldiers, they deserve the same respect.

Quote: terapined

purportedly?

look, guy, I have to either take your word for it, or I have to look it up. I don't like having to look it up. I don't like assuming. Thanks for showing the link.

I'd say you are showing signs of wanting to stir up feelings btw.

Quote: AZDuffman

I said ask here and I will explain

Thanks. You have many valid points; I am more receptive to these points than many of course.

I'll just point out that you wish your use of the symbol to mean one thing, but you have to accept that many of those viewing it will get a different message than you intend. This is the problem for all of us who would like to be able to use the flag in this and that.

Quote: odiousgambit

Thanks. You have many valid points; I am more receptive to these points than many of course.

I'll just point out that you wish your use of the symbol to mean one thing, but you have to accept that many of those viewing it will get a different message than you intend. This is the problem for all of us who would like to be able to use the flag in this and that.

I accept that many do not get it, but at this point in life it hardly matters. Better to die on your feet than on your knees as they say.

In any case, I will probably be minimizing my time over there for now. The type on the new layout is way hard for me to read. Might be getting time to split my forum time other places.