Quiz -- Which was the original flag of the Confederate States of America?

I suppose there is a point where the number of monuments needs thinning but I can't imagine we're there yet. In some cases, I could see monuments consolidated from one place to another to decrease costs.

Local erections (lol) are the things that may run out of funding since they may depend on local funding.

Quote: Face

Who's "we"? Sounds sort of non-inclusive, as if "you" won and "I" lost. I can assure you, this is an incorrect statement. And who is rubbing what in my face? I feel like you assume I am anti gay or anti gay marriage. I am anti marriage, period. The fact that the gays now have it is something I see as nothing but a positive. Either they manage to do it right and inject some credibility back into it, or they f#$% it up as bad as we straights and continue to erode it. Either way it's a change, and if I can't destroy it, I'm all for changing it.

Sorry.
I was trying to be brief and a smart alec.
Reading your posts, I should know your position on gay marriage.
I was trying to come off as funny and instead I offended you.
Again, sorry.

Quote: Face

Hey AZD! You're rubbing off on people ;)

That's an idea. Cut funding to all monuments. But have you thought it through?

I was actually a hard core republican when I was younger. Obama was the 1st Dem I ever voted for President.
I was a Republican because I was a fiscal conservative. The Christian right drove me from the party.
I am also a personal cheapskate.
You want these monuments, charge admission so they are self supporting or you pay for them yourself.
What is important to you, may not be important to me.
Let economic fate take its course.

Quote: Face

I have some weird ideas. I have oft been called "un-American" by my peers because of them. But things mean something. I hate NY. I despise everything about the cesspool of NYC. But what if some private entity found that scrapping Lady Liberty was more cost effective than maintaining it for tourism? You cool with that? I ain't. What if some corp. folded, and now Mt Rushmore has no steward. Just gonna let the weeds overgrow it and weather erase the faces? I ain't cool with that either.

I love NYC by the way.
Some of the best times in my life were attending Grateful Dead shows at Madison SQ Garden and Allman Brothers shows at the Beacon Theater.
ah, the sweet memories of NYC.
If these monuments are important, you and the people that think they are important, support them with your own money.
There are a gazillion monuments in this country, way too many. Let economic nature take its course.
Too me, MT rushmore is not important. Its big art, meh. You pay for it.
The statue, yea, that's important.
I'm a cheapskate, I would contribute to the statue with my own money.
If cheapskate me would do that, the statue aint going anywhere.

Quote: Face

I am not the forum's history buff, but I've been some places. Being able to walk into the forts of the coastal south was special. Remembering the men and women killed at Pearl Harbor is important. Honoring those of 9/11 likewise. History is important. Pearl Harbor wasn't pretty, but it's important to memorialize and remember it. Vietnam was ugly, but it's important to memorialize and remember it. I am the last person to ask the Fed for anything, but where these things are concerned, I want that guarantee that these things will be maintained to shiny perfection.

History is important.
I am sure a lot of people feel the same way as you . You and bunch of people set up a huge trust fund for the monument,
Anything important to people will be maintained, those just a few feel are important, well, too bad.
What is important to you may not be important to me.

Quote: Face

Would you really picket 1 World Trade Center and call it a "waste of money"? Would you see your beliefs through and attempt to prevent its funding? I wouldn't. I pay for Pearl Harbor and I'll likely never see it in my life. I still want it there. I visited 9/11 in March of 2002. It is not a happy memory. I still want something to memorialize it. When I come to power and hand you a hammer, would you take the Vietnam War Memorial down, piece by piece, with your own hands?

I'm not going to picket , where do you get that from?
We talk the talk back and forth, but in the end, its a forum. cyberspace. Make believe in a way.
If you think 1 World Trade Center is not a waste of money, then pay for it yourself. I may help you pay for it :-)
Again, If I am a cheapskate, and will to pay for 1 World Trade Center, then it would have no problem going non tax payer funded.

Quote: Face

Unless you answered "yes" to all these questions, your views bother me and is the reason for me jumping all over your ideas. I find it hard to believe you'd say "F#$% Lady Liberty, raze her into the ocean", yet you'd have no problem doing it to Lee or Churchill or Davis. That's wrong to me, especially from someone who I've come to view as a member of "the party of tolerance". You're obviously pro gay rights and anti discrimination. If you'd ask for tolerance from others, why do you not extend it to them?

Add on: Anyone may feel free to chime in

I don't believe my tax dollars should be used to support a monument
I believe my own money should be used to support monuments that I deem important.
One way or another, the statue of liberty will stay standing, weather its part of my taxes, or part of my personal money.

Bottom line in the end, anything deemed important by the people, will be well maintained by said people with their own money.

I love to see a monument to the Grateful Dead.
Should the tax payers build it, hell no
Should I contribute to building it, hell no, I;m too cheap, saving my money to support the statue of liberty :-)

Interesting conversation, If you reply and I don't for a while, I am not avoiding you.
Flight to Vegas early am tomorrow,
P A R T Y

Quote: Face

I get what you're saying, I just don't agree. "What it means to way, way too many people" ain't my problem.

Now you and AZ have said pretty much the same thing. This puts me in a funny position, one I certainly never foresaw coming in the days when I used the symbol myself.

The thing you two have brought up about shutting down the use of the symbol for PC reasons in the face of all the accommodations we are supposed to make for the other groups and their failings that you have mentioned, yeah, this really resonates with me. Good for you guys for noticing this. Here's a tidbit for you: the song "Dixie" is now banned at schools all over the South. Some colleges still go with it I think, but it is really rare for the song to be used in high schools [in any condoned way]. If you have not directly observed the extent of the feeling against it amongst the Af/A population you have no idea how deep it is. It is an exactly reversed mirror image of the positive feelings the White population has for it. It's confounding really, but it is what it is. Again it is the "take it down" crowd that has won out.

In the face of these things, I guess there is an element of resignation with me. I admit that's bad, but I don't see it changing.

Quote: odiousgambit

Now you and AZ have said pretty much the same thing. This puts me in a funny position, one I certainly never foresaw coming in the days when I used the symbol myself.

In the face of these things, I guess there is an element of resignation with me. I admit that's bad, but I don't see it changing.

USA society is heading for more and more major clashes. Once one thing was banned, it is another and another and another. Those of us who noticed were called kooks, nuts, and tinfoil-hat wearers. Next thing you know, look where we are. I was in a facebook discussion yesterday, 2 black guys I used to work with and one black guy they knew jumped in. Me and 1-2 others on the other side, but mostly me. The black guy I did not know, he was a black version of the KKK. Just hated white people and all they stood for. Effectively his line of conversation was that he could not wait for whites to no longer be the majority so white people "can know how it feels."

The other two, we had most of the conversation before. It started about riots and what they call white rioters after a sports event vs blacks in Ferguson/Baltimore. They tried to goad me into giving the white folks a pass, which I did not, I called them scum. I asked if they would call out the black rioters as such. They refused to do so. The closest I got was "well, they may have done wrong but I see why they are frustrated!" Then the usual blaming of slavery for all their ills and a list of grievances from then until now. I mentioned that they nor I were alive then. No matter.

There is a percent of the black population that has a vile hatred for white America and all American history. I said it before and will again, soon there will be a call to change the USA flag because it is " a white man's flag." There will be continuing movements to revise history. This hatred runs deeper than most people realize or will admit, and I am talking both white and black people alike. It keeps getting stoked by powers that make good use of it (Sharpton, Jackson, Obama, Hillary, college professors, etc.) One "ban" feeds more and more resentment.

I am resigned that it is going to tear things apart. Nothing I can do. Reminds me of a college professor traveled Germany. He met people who went thru it all 1920-1946. He asked if they saw what was happening. They said yeah, they saw it. At first they were kooks you ignored, then they got more and more mainstream until they were in power. You saw it happening and knew it would lead bad places but what could you do?

Main thing is be aware. It is like when the mafia tries to take over your business. First it is just the garbage contract. Then the linens. Then the booze. Then the food. Sooner or later they have every piece of you possible, until you are broke.

Quote: AZDuffman

Effectively his line of conversation was that he could not wait for whites to no longer be the majority so white people "can know how it feels."

I have news for this guy. He is just going to go from being "oppressed" by people stoked to the gills with white guilt to being oppressed truly by a majority of Asians and Hispanics without a scintilla of any such guilt. I do take a little comfort from being fairly sure of this.

Note that my issue is with any Af/A's who would have the attitude this one guy you describe has. Otherwise, I don't have too much new issue with blacks, they have been pretty consistent on the flag issue and what do you expect? I kind of have more of an issue with guys like Carpetbagger Virginia Governor McAwful who couldn't resist taking a shot at the reasonable and tasteful use of the flag on the license plate of the Sons of Conf. Vets.

Quote: terapined

Sorry.
I was trying to be brief and a smart alec.
Reading your posts, I should know your position on gay marriage.
I was trying to come off as funny and instead I offended you.
Again, sorry.

Not accepted, but only because it's not necessary. I'm not offended. I do get bothered by people who play "teams" on politics, and I always speak up if I think someone is trying to pigeon hole me. Plus, it's like I told OG. I could say I am upset about the gay marriage decision. That is a true statement. Then most people would think I'm anti gay. That is not the case. So just as my pro-flag stance doesn't make me a black-hating bigot, neither does my marriage stance mean I hate gays. Since many would jump to that conclusion, I have to come in and set it straight. No big deal.

Quote: terapined

Interesting conversation, If you reply and I don't for a while, I am not avoiding you.
Flight to Vegas early am tomorrow,
P A R T Y

And I'm going into the woods and not stopping until I get 0G and no bars. Here's to parties, however you do it =)

Quote: odiousgambit

Now you and AZ have said pretty much the same thing. This puts me in a funny position, one I certainly never foresaw coming in the days when I used the symbol myself.

We differ. No big deal.

The stuff you wrote about black friends or acquaintances isn't something I can relate to. The demographics in my home town is 60/40 White / Native. All of the surrounding towns are minimum 94% white. There were two black kids in my school when I was coming up. I was friends with both, but that's a pretty small sample. One of my best friends in college was a fat, black, gay man. And my now ex-B-i-L is black. That's about the sum total of my contact with black folk. That leaves me unable to empathize with how some of them may feel.

But, being Native, I have another view on it. I / we suffered every bit as much predation as the black man did. Abuse, murder, destruction of culture, hand in hand. While I can't empathize directly with "black struggle", I sure can empathize with something. I mean, you even say "nigger" in context and everyone cringes, if not outright speaks against you. Yet people can curse the "injun" and comment how they "get scalped" at the local Indian joint, and most laugh and join in and yell about paying taxes. Blacks have had success. Not just idiot sports stars, but people you can look up to. Hell, the GD president is black. Name me one famous Native that isn't Jim Thorpe. Their ancestors were "taken" from their homeland. My ancestors homeland was just taken. I don't get it, but yet I sort of do.

Still, you won't hear me cursing modern America, or demanding they remove a sigul, or calling AZD a "white devil". AZD didn't take anything. The land taken wasn't mine. Wtf do I have to be mad about? That people hate my race or my culture for whatever reason? Who cares? They have nothing to do with my life. And if I don't get a job because "Face is red, he's probably a drunk", then that's their loss, and they just saved me the indignity of making money for an asshole. I don't need protection, I don't want help. Ain't nobody gonna keep Face from being successful other than Face. If you think other people are the cause of your failure, I have no time for you. F#$% you. Do it yourself, your way. Don't force other people to do stuff to benefit you.

And then there's the whole argument about how removing a swatch of cloth from the capitol building is gonna change race relations, but I reckon y'all are smart enough to figure it out without me wasting more pixels ;)

Quote: Face

Name me one famous Native that isn't Jim Thorpe.

I have to admit, I never gave this much thought. Lets put historical figures aside. Most famous Indians from TV or movies were really not. Crying Indian commercial to Chief Jay Strongbow.

Quote:

calling AZD a "white devil".

Ah, go ahead. Might help my street cred.....

Quote:

AZD didn't take anything. The land taken wasn't mine. Wtf do I have to be mad about? That people hate my race or my culture for whatever reason? Who cares? They have nothing to do with my life. And if I don't get a job because "Face is red, he's probably a drunk", then that's their loss, and they just saved me the indignity of making money for an asshole. I don't need protection, I don't want help. Ain't nobody gonna keep Face from being successful other than Face. If you think other people are the cause of your failure, I have no time for you. F#$% you. Do it yourself, your way. Don't force other people to do stuff to benefit you.

Sadly, too many people think the opposite and let it consume their life. The better way is to live your life. One group got the NCAA to ban Indian names for teams, another makes millions licensing theirs. Which group is happier today? Which is better off?

It it not a world of men we live in anymore. It is a world of clockwatchers.

In response to Face question, name me 1 famous indian not Jim Thorpe.

Easy
Buffy Sainte Marie
Known of her since 70's
What can I say, I love music.

Chillin at the D

Elizabeth Warren!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-controversy-over-elizabeth-warrens-claimed-native-american-heritage/2012/09/27/d0b7f568-08a5-11e2-a10c-fa5a255a9258_blog.html