God and Gay Marriage

Quote: Mosca

It is not lip service. It is something that is happening right now every day.

I have nothing left to say.

I wish you wouldn't leave. Believe it or not I do very much value your opinion.

You are right it is happening every day that people are being forced to do things they do not want to do because of some strange "economic freedom" that trumps our first and most fundamental freedom of religion (or lack thereof). Imagine if you will demanding bacon or a cheeseburger from a Jewish Kosher Deli or forcing a Jewish baker to make your Swastika birthday cake? Opening up a business shouldn't mean you forgo your rights to exercise or practice what you believe.

Quote: Nareed

Not in the context of a civil marriage.

If you want to say that in a religious marriage it matters, go ahead and claim the universe for all I care. But your beliefs don't matter even a fraction of a tiny iota when it comes to civil marriage.

We are not talking about religious marriages we are talking about civil unions or marriages or whatever the state wants to call these very different things. I am in the unique position of trying to keep religion out of discussion because when we are talking about how the state should define marriage it should not come into play. What should come into play is the mess we get into by calling two different things the same thing.

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And yet you want government to differentiate between who makes up a marriage? Do you not see the potential for abuse and mistreatment?

Welcome to the wonderful world of laws. The government differentiates between things all the time, they have to and then create laws to attempt to stop abuse or mistreatment.

Quote: Nareed

And "black" meant "subservient" or "slave," but rarely "citizen," in the United States from the 1500s until at least the 1860s. Tradition and custom are terrible guides for maintaining oppressive policies.

So are you saying that marriage defined as between a man and a woman is inherently wrong or evil? Hyperbole is a terrible guide to changing policy.

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Why hold up recognition of the rights of millions of people because it discommodes people?

For the umpteenth time - no one (at least not here that I have heard) is talking about holding up recognition of the rights of anyone. We can protect the rights of homosexuals in a loving and committed relationship and make them equal to a heterosexual marriage without changing the definition of the word marriage.

Quote: Dalex64

Years ago, the compromise idea of "fine, just call it a civil union" was soundly rejected by both sides.

Compromise and reason don't seem to be characteristics valuable to either side of this issue.

Quote: FrGamble

Imagine if you will demanding bacon or a cheeseburger from a Jewish Kosher Deli

You can't demand a bacon anything at a restaurant that serves bacon if they've run out. A kosher deli wouldn't even have it in stock. It would be unreasonable to allege discrimination for not providing an item not in the menu.

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Opening up a business shouldn't mean you forgo your rights to exercise or practice what you believe.

I'll follow my own advice now: what part of your religion demands denying services to any kind of people? If it's not part of your religion, then, since you're arguing for denying services to people, which religions demand this and why?

We can get into details, too. Would it be ok for a Christian baker to refuse to provide a cake saying "Happy Birthday Johnny" if ordered by a same sex couple for their son's birthday party? If the baker fails to realize this until later on, does he have a right to demand the cake be returned? If the cake has been consumed by then, can he sue for damages?

Is this getting ridiculous?

Of course it is. But so is claiming a religious right to discriminate.

To pre-empt your very obvious retort: if I owned a bakery and someone asked for a swastika shaped cake, I would refuse. Let the bastard sue. He'll find no sympathy anywhere. I want to see what lawyer will take a case on contingency when he knows he'd be lucky to get $1 in damages. If one wanted a cake with the words "Happy Birthday Adolph Hitler" on it, I'd sell him a cake, and direct him to a bakery supply place where he can find implements and icing to make his own inscription. I'd do the same if the subject were Robert E. Lee or even FDR.

BTW, the Nazi with the uninscribed cake would also get my best imitation of Penny saying "Your cake is perfectly fine. Go on, try it. I dare you."

Quote: FrGamble

We are not talking about religious marriages we are talking about civil unions or marriages or whatever the state wants to call these very different things.

You keep claiming there is some kind of mysterious difference you will not articulate. I will ignore all such claims from now on.

Quote: FrGamble

I wish you wouldn't leave. Believe it or not I do very much value your opinion.

You are right it is happening every day that people are being forced to do things they do not want to do because of some strange "economic freedom" that trumps our first and most fundamental freedom of religion (or lack thereof). Imagine if you will demanding bacon or a cheeseburger from a Jewish Kosher Deli or forcing a Jewish baker to make your Swastika birthday cake? Opening up a business shouldn't mean you forgo your rights to exercise or practice what you believe.

That is not our first and foremost freedom. Our first and foremost freedoms are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, outlined in the Declaration of Independence. The United States is a secular country, specifically and intentionally formed on secular principles. The Bill of Rights was written to limit government power, not to grant unlimited power to some citizens to trample on others' equality. Giving all people equal right to marry does not impinge freedom of religion. Last I checked Christianity is still out there, along with all the other religions, even Scientology. And Mormons.

Furthermore, you keep trying to claim the word "marriage" as something special, specifically for men and women to bond for life. But it is used even in recipes to describe mixing flavors and ingredients. But you want to differentiate the word. "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

Well we know what happened to that guy.

Quote: Nareed

I'll follow my own advice now: what part of your religion demands denying services to any kind of people? If it's not part of your religion, then, since you're arguing for denying services to people, which religions demand this and why?

We are not talking about denying services to any kind of people. If a gay couple wants a birthday cake or a Happy Retirement cake there is nothing wrong with that. What we are talking about is not supporting something that you don't believe in, you shouldn't be forced to do so just because you own a business.

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Is this getting ridiculous?

Of course it is. But so is claiming a religious right to discriminate.

To pre-empt your very obvious retort: if I owned a bakery and someone asked for a swastika shaped cake, I would refuse. Let the bastard sue. He'll find no sympathy anywhere. I want to see what lawyer will take a case on contingency when he knows he'd be lucky to get $1 in damages.

What would you do if your cause or stance wasn't so popular? What would you do if you were a Jewish baker in Nazi Germany?

Quote: Mosca

That is not our first and foremost freedom. Our first and foremost freedoms are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, outlined in the Declaration of Independence. The United States is a secular country, specifically and intentionally formed on secular principles. The Bill of Rights was written to limit government power, not to grant unlimited power to some citizens to trample on others' equality.

It is the first freedom granted in First Amendment of the Constitution's Bill of Rights. This freedom is what makes the United States a secular country and provides the separation of Church and State. This was to limit government's power over religion and allow its citizens to practice and live out their faith freely without government influence. I still fail to see how providing equal protection under the law while respecting deeply held religious beliefs and traditions that go back loooong before the USA was a twinkle in anyone's eye is somehow trampling on other's equality?!?