Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Evenbob

I think Occam's Razor applies here.

Evenbob is right Ockham's Razor does apply here. However, it doesn't lead us to the idea that matter, which does not explain its own existence and is not necessary to exist, has always been here. As Bob points out the evidence shows that we observe beginnings and ends. We have no evidence or experience of material things existing forever nor is this a logical assumption. It is the same as positing aliens brought life to our planet. There are and will always be mysteries but we know enough that the idea of an eternal material universe has been abandoned by scientists and serious thinkers alike. We take what we know and then apply reason and logic to those truths to arrive at logical conclusions which point us in one direction - the existence of an eternal, all-powerful, spiritual being we call God. There are plenty of mysteries without inventing false ones like aliens and trying to posit something we have no experience or evidence of such as matter that is uncaused and eternal.

Quote: FrGamble

As Bob points out the evidence shows that we observe beginnings and ends. .

That's not what I said AT ALL. We THINK we
see beginnings when what we really see are
changes to something that's always been there.

It's perfectly logical that we've been here forever
in one form or another. Far more logical than
inventing magical gods and blaming them for
everything. Thinking you see a gods handiwork
only proves you have an active imagination, and
that's all it proves.

I don't know I think it takes an overactive imagination to think that matter, which needs to come into existence, has always been here. Your god then becomes the universe which is pantheism and a strange god indeed. To quote you exactly, "We THINK we see beginnings when what we really see are changes to something that's always been there." Why do you go against what you think and what the evidence points to? It sounds like you are making stuff up. If you follow these "changes" backwards to something like the Big Bang how do you eventually explain when or where the first changes happened? Where did the stuff that goes through these changes come from?

Quote: FrGamble

Where did the stuff that goes through these changes come from?

Always been here in one form or another,
always will be. Forever and ever, world
without end.

Okay, a couple of questions. Do you have any logical reasons or evidence to believe that matter is eternal?

How do you explain this change that happens to all this matter over and over again? What is the cause of the change in matter that we think and observe as beginnings and ends? How did this matter develop life and consciousness?

Quote: Dalex64

Through genetic engineering and selective breeding, they slowly develop these hominids into the first true humans, Adam and Eve.

What can you say about chocolate-covered manhole covers? http://www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/75689/10/Niven_-_All_The_Myriad_Ways.html

Quote: FrGamble

... Where did the stuff that goes through these changes come from?

Where is it going? Or did it just get here and stop it's journey?

Quote: FrGamble

Evenbob is right Ockham's Razor does apply here. However, it doesn't lead us to the idea that matter, which does not explain its own existence and is not necessary to exist, has always been here. As Bob points out the evidence shows that we observe beginnings and ends. We have no evidence or experience of material things existing forever nor is this a logical assumption. It is the same as positing aliens brought life to our planet. There are and will always be mysteries but we know enough that the idea of an eternal material universe has been abandoned by scientists and serious thinkers alike. We take what we know and then apply reason and logic to those truths to arrive at logical conclusions which point us in one direction - the existence of an eternal, all-powerful, spiritual being we call God. There are plenty of mysteries without inventing false ones like aliens and trying to posit something we have no experience or evidence of such as matter that is uncaused and eternal.

What proof or evidence do you put forth to disprove the notion that what we perceived of as god was anything other than an extraterrestrial? What could be a simpler explanation that operates within the rules of the universe as we know them, and requires no supernatural explanation, that we were engineered by aliens and perceived them as gods?

Well, one simpler explanation is that we developed naturally on our own of course. But I'm putting forth an explanation that fits and is supported by all of the same evidence that is used to attempt to demonstrate that the supernatural is real.

It also still hasn't been demonstrated how the god of moses and the god that started the universe are one and the same. As far as I can tell, the only evidence is someone said "because someone said he said so"

How can you possibly disprove the idea that some other entity didn't create the universe AND god? Because that isn't what someone wrote? It fits infinite regression, it just contradicts your notion that god was first and only. The "evidence" that god was first and only is that someone wrote it down, in contradiction of course to other people writing similar first and only stories about their gods. If you want to suggest that they were really writing about your god, then I don't mind suggesting that they were all really writing about the aliens.

Quote: FrGamble

Okay, a couple of questions. Do you have any logical reasons or evidence to believe that matter is eternal?

How do you explain this change that happens to all this matter over and over again? What is the cause of the change in matter that we think and observe as beginnings and ends? How did this matter develop life and consciousness?

It's 1880, how does an airplane fly? What
makes it fly? Is there a cure for polio? A
hundred questions you could ask that were
eventually answered. Wait long enough
and the questions you ask will be answered
also. While your waiting, continue wasting
your time on gods that don't exist and looking
at your watch waiting for Jesus to return.

I am by far not the first one to come up with this idea:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_astronaut_hypothesis

They call it pseudoscience. That is the same word they use to describe creationism.

Too bad religion can't stand up to the same tests that science can bring against ideas like this. It's kinda unfair, don't you think, that people can propose scientific theories at the risk of having them scientifically disproven, but no such test exists for ANY religion?

That is perhaps the greatest logical fallacy of all time - that you can select any religion above any other as the truth. The only thing you can do is insist that you are right, and try to convince others so that your religion can survive.