Yet another aviation thread.

The unfortunately named Boom aviation company unveiled, I'm not sure, either a test aircraft or a test aircraft model (reports are sketchy). Either way, it's something tangible to show beyond mysterious order options and promises based on computer simulations.

I really hope they succeed. But the reports are rather strange. on the one hand we are told there's no engine for the full sized plane yet (the test article is a two-seater), on the other we're told of proprietary engine designs and parts. So it's hard to say where things stand.

Their claims stand up better to comprehension.

The stated goal is that a Mach 2.2 ticket from NY to London or Paris should cost about as much as a current business class ticket.

Fair enough. But is it worth it?

Boom stresses that technology has changed a great deal since the days of Concorde. Yes. But other things have changed as well. 70s era first class on a Pan Am 747, aside from the food and drink, was about what premium economy is now. Today's business class has lie-flat seats, on-demand entertainment, and reasonably good food and drink. A busy businessperson on the road might prefer a business class seat on a longer flight. As a chance to rest, sleep, or just to take a break.

A few years back I had to go to Guadalajara, which normally would entail a 45 minute flight. This time I had to drive because of the samples I had to bring. But the boss also decided to assign me a driver. Well, not having to drive meant I spent the 5+ hour ride listening to an audiobook, and even getting a little nap in. It was my most stress-free business trip by far.

Boom's plane, if it gets built and if it succeeds, would still be a prototype of sorts (even if it can get permission to fly over land). It's a first generation kind of plane, and we still have to see what the market actually makes of it.

Quote: Nareed

The stated goal is that a Mach 2.2 ticket from NY to London or Paris should cost about as much as a current business class ticket. Fair enough. But is it worth it?

In the Guardian they do talk about $5K round trip as their target. But I looked at British Airways Business Class (flexible ticket) leaving from JFK to London tomorrow and returning on Monday and it was $14,140.98 round trip. First class was $20,103.98 . So they could go a lot higher and still be within their vow to keep fare within the bounds of a current business class ticket.

Richard Branson has teamed with Boom and has already agreed to purchase ten planes.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/23/boom-supersonic-jet-travel-affordable-business-class

Quote: Pacomartin

In the Guardian they do talk about $5K round trip as their target. But I looked at British Airways Business Class (flexible ticket) leaving from JFK to London tomorrow and returning on Monday and it was $14,140.98 round trip. First class was $20,103.98 . So they could go a lot higher and still be within their vow to keep fare within the bounds of a current business class ticket.

Something doesn't add up...

I recall having looked JFK-LHR tickets last year. Economy was around $1,200-$1,600, while business ranged from $4,500-$6,000 or so. $14k strikes me as excessive.

In the end the airlines will set the fares according to many factors. Costs being just one of them. Boom's estimate depend son being able to deliver on fuel burn (they say they won't need afterburners; I'll believe that when I see it), and the list price of the airplane.

I suddenly had a vision of a multimillion dollar asset loaded with highly flammable fuel and sent hurtling at vertiginous speeds. What could possibly go wrong? :)

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Richard Branson has teamed with Boom and has already agreed to purchase ten planes.

Does he even have an airline to put them in? I seem to recall reading he no longer controls Virgin Atlantic

He has Virgin galactic, but I can't see how SSTs would work there. Unless the joyrides to space (now 12 years in the making and counting) won't pay the bills...

Quote: Nareed

$14k strikes me as excessive.

I was looking at fares with less than 24 hours notice.

My point was that business class fares can cover a wide range of prices. If you fly business class on IcelandAir you can get very inexpensive business class fares, but they are the old style business class seat which and not the new lie flat seats.

If I book the same flight on Saga Class (little over 10 hours to Heathrow because of the stop in Iceland) is is $4674.

Quote: Nareed

Does he even have an airline to put them in? I seem to recall reading he no longer controls Virgin Atlantic He has Virgin galactic, but I can't see how SSTs would work there. Unless the joyrides to space (now 12 years in the making and counting) won't pay the bills...

He is no longer CEO of Virgin Atlantic and he sold Virgin America. But he still has influence. Besides the decision to partner with Boom was probably not his alone.

But he may very well have supsonic trips to the sites where Virgin Galactic is going to take off from. People paying $250K to fly into space will certainly be willing to shell out $5K-$10K to get to the launch pad.

Quote: Pacomartin

I was looking at fares with less than 24 hours notice.

My point was that business class fares can cover a wide range of prices

Fair enough. Lots of business trips are last-minute, and journalists are deathly allergic to nuance.

IMO, though, the price at which most travel gets booked is what should matter. and when saying "business class2 one assumes it's the major airlines', with lie-flat seats, that are being talked about.

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But he may very well have supsonic trips to the sites where Virgin Galactic is going to take off from. People paying $250K to fly into space will certainly be willing to shell out $5K-$10K to get to the launch pad.

Perhaps. But most likely the whole Spaceship 2 notion is not sustainable, and V. Galactic could get into the SST business. What would be more futuristic, and within reach of more people, than an all-SST airline fleet?

Quote: Nareed

But most likely the whole Spaceship 2 notion is not sustainable, and V. Galactic could get into the SST business.

I don't think they envision the price staying that high past the first few years.

Quote: Nareed

What would be more futuristic, and within reach of more people, than an all-SST airline fleet?

It sounds like you would be able to charter a 40 seat SST aircraft for a one way trip for less money than a single person could go on a short sub-orbital flight.

Quote: Pacomartin

I don't think they envision the price staying that high past the first few years.

For Spaceship 2 or for Boom's plane?

The former will always be nothing but an expensive joyride. The latter will see a price drop in the second generation design(s), if we ever get that far.

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It sounds like you would be able to charter a 40 seat SST aircraft for a one way trip for less money than a single person could go on a short sub-orbital flight.

And actually get somewhere in the SST.

I'm a big fan of spaceflight, and I long for the day when we regularly travel between worlds as we do between continents. I was also thrilled when Rutan's Spaceship One successfully flew twice. But suborbital jaunts to nowhere are mere thrill rides with no practical purpose. I'm not against them, but I don't see them as great advances in space travel.

the company to watch for that is SpaceX. They've actually orbited numerous payloads over the past few years. And Elon Musk is very sincere about his goal to colonize Mars. It won't happen on the incredibly optimistic time table he recently announced, but he's helping build the tools that will make it possible int eh future.

There are other private space companies, but none as far along as SpaceX.

Quote: Nareed

But suborbital jaunts to nowhere are mere thrill rides with no practical purpose. I'm not against them, but I don't see them as great advances in space travel.

The expectation is the price of suborbital will drop by a massive percentage in a few years and that orbital flights will be the real tourism attraction.

XCOR Aerospace is already selling tickets for $150K beating Virgin's price by $100K.Blue Origin, which is run by Amazon.com founder Jeff Bezos, has developed its own crew-carrying system a reusable six-passenger capsule and rocket named New Shepard.

Of course if Boom can reach Mach 2.2 ~ 1,450 MPH then one wonders if people will really pay a quarter of a million to go 4000 mph.

Quote: David Szondy November 15th, 2016

In contrast, the production Boom airliner will have a wingspan of 60 ft (18 m), carry a crew of up to six plus up to 55 passengers, and have a range of 9,000 nm (10,300 mi, 16,700 km).
http://newatlas.com/boom-xb-1-prototype/46452/

There seems to be considerable disagreement about the range of the Boom aircraft. My understanding was that it would only be capable of very limited transpacific nonstops (like Vancouver to Narita) . I am very skeptical of the claim in the article above. The longest current nonstop is Dubai to Auckland on Emirates (EK #449) which has a "great circle" distance of 7,668nm or 8,825mi or 14,203km which takes 17 hr 25 min on an Airbus A380-800 and began flying on 2 March 2016.

The Air India flight which uses the jet stream to fly from Delhi to San Francisco in one direction is longer, but official distances use great circle. All routes deviate from great circles to look for jet streams or for political purposes.





YVR NRT 4,674 mi (Vancouver to Narita outside of Tokyo)
ANC NRT 3,433 mi (Anchorage to Narita implies refueling stop)
JFK LHR 3,451 mi baseline

Although the inconvenience can be mitigated somewhat by developing a highly efficient refueling station for Supersonic Aircraft in Alaska, but I have a feeling that they will still not compete well with subsonic luxury cubicles.

The Concorde had a range of about 4500 miles, which meant Miami was just barely in range of London, but not of Paris.


Most of Western Europe was in range of NYC.


A similar range for Boom implies that Dubai may be able to develop a highly efficient supsonic transfer hub to shuttle people from Europe to Asia.

Quote: Pacomartin

The expectation is the price of suborbital will drop by a massive percentage in a few years and that orbital flights will be the real tourism attraction.

I don't know.

I mean, yes, orbital flights will be the real attraction. And if SpaceX and others can lower the cost, it will be popular with millionaires and celebrities. But suborbital flights will remain too expensive, and likely will die, after lowering their prices.

Unless someone develops a suborbital, hypersonic transport as we've talked about before.

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Of course if Boom can reach Mach 2.2 ~ 1,450 MPH then one wonders if people will really pay a quarter of a million to go 4000 mph.

The allure of suborbitals is not the speed, but the weightlessness and the view for a few minutes.

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There seems to be considerable disagreement about the range of the Boom aircraft. My understanding was that it would only be capable of very limited transpacific nonstops (like Vancouver to Narita) . I am very skeptical of the claim in the article above.

The thing to keep in mind is that right now Boom is what's called a paper airplane: it exists only as a design, and one in flux at that (the first public iteration had two engines, not three). Paper airplanes are notorious for wildly varying claims about range, speed, payload, fuel efficiency, etc.

No doubt we could build something better than Concorde today: lighter, more efficient, quieter, etc. But not by much. Imagine if jet travel had been discontinued after only one model ever flew, let's say the Comet. So we'd have had jet travel only briefly in the 50s and 60s, only in a few routes and only with a few planes; before going back to an all piston-propeller fleet.

Suppose after 15 more years of piston engines, someone decides to design a new jet. No doubt they could do better than the Comet, but if you expected a 747 or even a 737 right off the bat, you'll be disappointed. Never mind a 787 or an A350 right off. There'd be a lack of experience in operations and a variety of designs to learn from.

So Boom, if it's ever built, will essentially be a first generation SST, or a Gen 1.5 at best. Only latter designs, if Boom succeeds enough (say a couple hundred planes in varying routes), then we'll see better SSts, and cheaper ones, by Gen 2.0 and 3.0, but not before.

Me, I'm highly skeptical of the claim they can achieve Mach 2.2 without afterburners. I know about supercruise engines, but it takes two engines on a less massive fighter to achieve Mach 1.2-1.5. Boom will be far more massive than a fighter, so perhaps with three larger engines it can make Mach 1.5 without afterburners. I'd buy that claim. But I don't see Mach 2.2 with plain jets.

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A similar range for Boom implies that Dubai may be able to develop a highly efficient supsonic transfer hub to shuttle people from Europe to Asia.

I though they already did.

If you mean supersonic, well, with enough fuel stops, the range is indefinite, but so is trip time.

I've read BA kept a reserve Concorde at Kennedy to backup their daily flight(s). The thinking being that passengers who paid for Concorde wouldn't accept a subsonic substitute flight, perhaps not even in 1st class, should the designated SST have a mechanical failure. That's understandable, even if they were refunded the price difference as well.

Quote: Nareed

Me, I'm highly skeptical of the claim they can achieve Mach 2.2 without afterburners. I know about supercruise engines, but it takes two engines on a less massive fighter to achieve Mach 1.2-1.5. Boom will be far more massive than a fighter, so perhaps with three larger engines it can make Mach 1.5 without afterburners. I'd buy that claim. But I don't see Mach 2.2 with plain jets.

If JFK-LHR is 3,451 miles and the Concorde could reach a top speed of 1350 miles per hour, and the trip took 3.5 hours (average roughly 1000 mph), it seems that some reasonable percentage of the trip must have been subsonic.I have never seen a detailed flight plan.

The Aerion AS2 business jet will fly at a top speed of 1,217 mph (Mach 1.8). They are hoping to break ground on the factory in 2018, and the cost of the entire project is expected to reach more than $100 million and the plane should be available by 2021.


You may be correct that Boom is overselling this early in the game. If the final product comes in at Mach 1.8 it should still have a market.