Simple question?

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December 28th, 2015 at 5:04:26 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 306
Posts: 10274
Quote: pew
Your original question has been answered.


I beg to differ.

Quote:
"Saved" from a God less eternity.


What's the catch? If there is any justice in the world, and of course it's never guaranteed, and Jehovah were real, and of course he isn't, he should by all rights be made to account for his many crimes.

Quote:
Atonement is transferable.


So if your brother commits murder, the state can execute you to make him atone for his crime?

Quote:
There is no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood.


That's a sick notion.

Quote:
Christ paid the ultimate sacrifice for all time. His blood is a sufficient sacrifice. We don't ever need to sacrifice again. It is finished on the cross. Simple, see? There is really not much more to be said on that specific question of yours.


Yes there is: when does the answer begin to make logical sense?
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
December 28th, 2015 at 5:05:00 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10396
Quote: pew
Simple, see? There is really not much more to be said on that specific question of yours.


First of all, you can't even prove sin
exists, so there is nothing to be
'saved' from. The whole thing
is ridiculous. It's a scam to get the
ignorant into the Church so they
can be controlled. It's not working
very well anymore, oh well.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 28th, 2015 at 5:55:52 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 97
Posts: 6029
Quote: Evenbob
First of all, you can't even prove sin
exists, so there is nothing to be
'saved' from.


It is not that sin can be "proved." Let's make it more simple. In their natural state, humans are if not evil then at the least not good. If you were not told otherwise, you would not see anything wrong with killing, stealing, or any other number of things people can do. If you doubt this, just look at nature. btw.

Human nature can sink very low. Unless you have no moral code, sin does exist. You may call it something else, but it is there.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
December 28th, 2015 at 6:11:11 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10396
Quote: AZDuffman
Unless you have no moral code, sin does exist. You may call it something else, but it is there.


sin1
sin/
noun
noun: sin; plural noun: sins

1.
an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

Divine, meaning gods law. There is no god,
therefore there can be no sin. You don't need
a god to be moral, or to be 'good', god has
nothing to do with anything. It's a myth meant
to control the rabble.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 28th, 2015 at 7:27:27 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 2
Posts: 1615
The bible:
Quote:
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."(Mark 16:16, Dominus Iesus p. 21-22


A pope:
Quote:
"The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the Gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation."


Here a pope is contradicting the bible.

And here a pope is contradicting a pope:
Quote:
individual Protestants aware of the fact that Christ established the Catholic Church, but fail to join its membership, "cannot be saved" since they are living in open contempt towards God's known truth.

That last one is on the wikipedia page, and it is an interpretation or summary of the pope's words. The citation on wikipedia is to the vatican's webpage.

So I think Nareed's original question is still unanswered.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
December 28th, 2015 at 8:21:24 PM permalink
pew
Member since: Jan 8, 2013
Threads: 2
Posts: 735
Quote: Nareed
What exactly do Christians mean by "salvation"?

Am I supposed to be saved from some kind of imminent peril?

And what do they mean by "accepting Jesus as your personal savior? Is this like a personal shopper? Will a man dead for 2,000+ years offer some kind of personalized assistance in this mysterious "salvation" business?

I don't expect I'll comprehend any of this.
You asked what Christians mean by salvation and you have your answer. It's nothing to be debated. It is what it is. That's what they mean. It's simple. The sun rises in the east, there's no point in arguing that east actually means something else or that the sun really doesn't rise. Everyone knows what the sun rises in the east means.
December 28th, 2015 at 8:26:29 PM permalink
pew
Member since: Jan 8, 2013
Threads: 2
Posts: 735
The answer may not make logical sense to you, but that's not the point. The answer is the answer. Maybe you should have asked if Christian salvation makes logical sense to people on the forum.
December 28th, 2015 at 9:13:56 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10396
Quote: pew
The answer may not make logical sense to you, but that's not the point. The answer is the answer.


It doesn't make logical sense to anybody,
that's why it cannot be explained. The
premise of it rests on nothing but myth
and conjecture, and once you've swallowed
all of that, it still makes no sense.

I don't think it's supposed to make sense,
that's the point. To the bumbling uneducated
peasant mind of a thousand years ago,
it was a riddle wrapped in an enigma, so
it must be true. Don't think about it, just
believe it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 29th, 2015 at 6:05:54 AM permalink
pew
Member since: Jan 8, 2013
Threads: 2
Posts: 735
It does make sense to believers. It is impossible for those who don't. It surely is an enigma.
December 29th, 2015 at 6:22:36 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 306
Posts: 10274
Quote: pew
You asked what Christians mean by salvation and you have your answer. It's nothing to be debated. It is what it is. That's what they mean. It's simple. The sun rises in the east, there's no point in arguing that east actually means something else or that the sun really doesn't rise. Everyone knows what the sun rises in the east means.


Why would an existence without "God" be a bad thing? Why is there a need to be "saved" in the first place, if this "God" person "loves" you so much? Why must one have faith, trust, confidence, love or whatever for Jesus, because he was unfairly executed? Outrage on his behalf, I can understand.

I agree you provided an answer, and I'm sure it's correct, but it's neither self-evident in meaning nor easily understood.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
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