Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

The Bible is by leaps and bounds the most attested ancient manuscript that exists. The Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Aramaic, etc. manuscripts are all over the world and the Bible is quoted through countless sources in various places and times. There is no controlling that and there is no additions or subtractions to the Bible, at least until you get to the Protestant Reformation.

See the "Forgeries" section of this website:
Http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm

And this site
Http://personman.com/6-added-passages
Interesting comments on that site, too. The author has some of the same observations and questions that I do.

And surely you will agree that something does not need to be part of the bible to be a legitimate and accurate historical document.

(Edit: link fixed)

Quote: FrGamble

This is just a bunch of baloney. The Church has always looked after widows and their children, it is a essential ministry. .

And with divorce being outlawed, they
had a boatload fewer of abandoned women
and kids to care for. Follow the money,
it never lies.

And yes, the Church was indeed losing a
lot of property when they allowed priests
to marry. Some of the higher up the food
chain men had estates that were quite
valuable, and had they not been married,
would have gone to the Church and not
the wife and kids. So they made sure it
would go to the Church, by outlawing
marriage. Of course you don't see it that way,
you have to toe the Church line or lose
your job.

Quote: Evenbob

Of course you don't see it that way,
you have to toe the Church line or lose
your job.

Do you really think that poorly of me? Do you think that my bishop is monitoring these conversations we are having of DT or would ever discover them? This is a free zone for me to disagree with the Church if I really felt the Church is wrong? There is no reason for me to tow the party line here. I often do so because it is correct and because your arguments are false, prejudiced, and illogical.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you really think that poorly of me? .

Do you think I'm making it all up? I've
read it again and again, the Church
outlawed marriage for priests because
it was losing money. The Church has
always been about increasing it's
wealth whenever possible, as you
know. Do you really think they just
woke up one day and went celibate
without having a sound economic
reason? Don't be ridiculous.

Even the Inquisitions were just an excuse
to fatten the Church's coffers. They
would go into a town and find out
who the richest Jew business owners
were, then seek out people to speak
bad things about them. Of course
that was easy, Jews were hated. They
then set about doing their evil deeds
on them and in the end, confiscated
all their real property and land. This
is well documented, Jews have
long petitioned the Church to return
some of the land they confiscated and
still own. Of course this has never
happened, nor will it.

Quote: FrGamble

The Church actually wants to help people heal from these broken relationships through a process called annulment. It looks at what was missing or was never present in the relationship that led to the separation and sadness. It declares that the Sacrament of Marriage as they and God desire it was never truly present.

That sounds a great deal like the Roman revenge ritual of expunging the memory of a dead enemy. You know, where all mention of this person is removed from monuments, public inscriptions and as many documents as can be found, their deeds erased or ascribed to someone else.

You were never married, you have never been in a relationship such as marriage, and we've always been at war with Eastasia.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you really think that poorly of me? Do you think that my bishop is monitoring these conversations we are having of DT or would ever discover them?

Don't you believe the big voyeur in heaven is watching this and every other conversation? Don't you think Jehovah might have something to say if you don't toe the line?

Quote: Dalex64

Other websites have claimed that the books weren't chosen just by senior church leaders through prayer and reflection, but rather which texts and beliefs were popular with the PEOPLE of the early church and society.

I suppose like someone here, the very early Christians thought if they merely stated the tenets of their faith, all those godless heathens would be dazzled by its effingly obvious truth, whereupon they'd all fall to their knees in gratitude and swear eternal and undying loyalty to the God/Jesus.

When this proved not to be the case, their leadership had to resort to other means, such as actually persuading people, until such time as they could be forced into the faith. So they resorted to philosophical arguments, proselytism, and even actual example of their faith. naturally they took measures to craft a holy book which would appeal to the masses and the elites.

This is not conjecture, but actual history. It's rather well documented, too.

Quote:

Not to feed the conspiracy theorists too much, but who knows what the Vatican has hidden in their vaults, and what they may have destroyed?

Probably not much.

Christianity gained dominance in the Roman empire when the empire was well into its long decay. The very same emperor who made it a state religion, Constantine, also moved the capital of the Empire to Constantinople. Rome steadily lost grandeur and influence, even though the Senate still met there.

Most of the action concerning religion and politics took place east, in the Levant and Anatolia. Few documents from that era would have been taken to Rome, seeing as the Patriarch of Constantinople held more power than the Bishop of Rome.

And much of what was kept in the Byzantine empire got spread all over Europe after the fall of Constantinople in the XV Century.

Quote: Evenbob

Do you think I'm making it all up?

No I think you've been hoodwinked, swindled, you've run amok and been had.

Quote:

Even the Inquisitions ....

The Inquisitions had nothing to do with someone who was not a Catholic and were certainly not about money.

Quote: Nareed

Don't you believe the big voyeur in heaven is watching this and every other conversation? Don't you think Jehovah might have something to say if you don't toe the line?

God is all more understanding than a bishop. God encourages this kind of good questioning and hearing from different perspectives. He is wonderful and loving and kind. I use these conversations often to lift you all in prayer as well to the Heavenly Father. Jesus didn't toe the line, nor any of the great saints, that is how great things happen. People need to stand up against the craziness and status quo and allow a different, strange, and truthful voice raise out of the wilderness, like a prophet.

Quote: FrGamble

God is all more understanding than a bishop.

Unlikely.

Quote:

Jesus didn't toe the line, nor any of the great saints, that is how great things happen. People need to stand up against the craziness and status quo and allow a different, strange, and truthful voice raise out of the wilderness, like a prophet.

I would believe this if such people were remembered for defying Jehovah in order to liberate people from his tyranny. Since that is clearly not the case...