Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

Ha, I guess I walked into that one.

One suit protects someone and helps them function normally. The other "suit" blocks a healthy natural process and puts a barrier between a loved ones.

I guess what me and so many other people in the world are saying: so what?
Specifically about married people and reproduction, again, not whether or not condoms enable rape.
I think it is also clear to most people that it is only a physical barrier, a very thin one, and not an emotional barrier.
It is also difficult to imagine how it is a barrier to communication between two people.

The other thing people are saying is that the fact that something is artificial or unnatural is not the only factor to be used in determining whether or not the use of such a tool is immoral. The artificial/unnatural => immoral argument breaks down since so many things are artificial/unnatural, and use of them is not immoral.

I need more than it being an artificial barrier to conception, and more believable justifications, before believing that something is immoral.

Quote: Dalex64

I guess what me and so many other people in the world are saying: so what?
Specifically about married people and reproduction, again, not whether or not condoms enable rape.
I think it is also clear to most people that it is only a physical barrier, a very thin one, and not an emotional barrier.
It is also difficult to imagine how it is a barrier to communication between two people.

In regards to condoms I can understand your comment in connection with a married couple. Unlike the other forms of contraception it is not harmful to the woman and is not something that inherently stops communication between people. The question then is if its not such a big deal then why can we not go without condoms in marriage? NFP is the opposite of rape, there is no barrier, not even a think one physically or emotionally. Also NFP actually requires communication between spouses.

I think in focusing us on condoms you are also implicitly recognizing the real difficulties in the many other forms of artificial contraception. In recognizing this do you see how strange and ludicrous it is for the government to force Catholic institutions to provide these dangerous and immoral forms of contraception?

Quote:

The other thing people are saying is that the fact that something is artificial or unnatural is not the only factor to be used in determining whether or not the use of such a tool is immoral. The artificial/unnatural => immoral argument breaks down since so many things are artificial/unnatural, and use of them is not immoral.

I don't think I have done a very good job in explaining what I mean by artificial/unnatural. It doesn't mean we shouldn't fly or use utensils. And Natural Law as a philosophical concept does not refer to the physical laws governing the universe. It is basically what we can learn about how we should live by looking at our bodies. Our bodies demonstrate the unmistakable complementarity of men and women and that two men or two women are not meant to engage in sexual activity with one another. Our bodies demonstrate a healthy and natural cycle of fertility and infertility in women that enables spouses to engage in the sexual activity for both of its two major benefits - the union of couples and procreation.

Quote: Dalex64

It is also difficult to imagine how it is a barrier to communication between two people. .

I mostly staying out of this because
I really have no idea what FrG is
talking about. These ideas he's putting
forth have nothing to do with the
real world people live in. No wonder
90+% of Catholic women use birth
control, the Church's opinion on it is
indecipherable.

They seem to think sex and marriage is
some kind of mysterious state of being
and the people in it are clueless about
what to do or how to communicate about
it. It's amazing how much you learn about
how to communicate with your spouse after just
a short time of being married.

Quote: FrGamble

Our bodies demonstrate the unmistakable complementarity of men and women and that two men or two women are not meant to engage in sexual activity with one another.

You know, I'm told us humans have minds, too.

But why would you care about that?

Quote: Nareed

You know, I'm told us humans have minds, too.

But why would you care about that?

We most definitely have minds, it is one of our greatest gifts and it is not used often enough.

Quote: FrGamble

We most definitely have minds, it is one of our greatest gifts and it is not used often enough.

Then stop telling us to be our bodies.

When you cut people in two, when you split the mind from the body, you kill them emotionally.

Quote: FrGamble

In regards to condoms I can understand your comment in connection with a married couple. Unlike the other forms of contraception it is not harmful to the woman and is not something that inherently stops communication between people. The question then is if its not such a big deal then why can we not go without condoms in marriage? NFP is the opposite of rape, there is no barrier, not even a think one physically or emotionally. Also NFP actually requires communication between spouses.

My question is, if it's not such a big deal, why can't married people use condoms?

They bring clear benefits that you have to go without if you choose NFP. They have been detailed several times.

I might as well list some of them again.
They prevent pregnancy more effectively than NFP. If people are not ready to have one or more children, and condoms are no big deal, shouldn't they be able to choose a better way?

They prevent the spread of disease between the spouses. It is in the news today - condoms help prevent the spread of the zika virus. If the woman isn't pregnant, then preventing transmission is a good thing. If the woman happens to be pregnant, then the consequences for transmission can be devastating.

One more I've mentioned several times before - convenience. If condoms are no big deal, why should a woman have to track her cycle so closely to insure she is probably not fertile in order for her to feel safe about having sex? I fell right back into effectiveness with that one. Back to convenience - have sex whenever both people want.

Quote: Dalex64

My question is, if it's not such a big deal, why can't married people use condoms?

Because religious ideology in general says you weren't created to be happy or enjoy your life, but to serve "God."

Why don't we ever discuss the real reason
for the Church not liking birth control. It's
the same reason Mormon's are against it.
Large families guarantee that the cult lives
on, the larger the better. It has nothing to
do with nature or our bodies. It's about
keeping the pews filled up.

FrG will now say he's appalled and where do
I get these radical ideas. Whatever. He knows
that's the real reason, but telling the congregation
to screw like rabbits to keep the Church healthy
is not a good political move.

I'm going to stop making cracks about the Mormon underwear and the Fundamentalist snake handlers. I thought the Catholics were the less crazy ones, but obviously I was wrong about that.