The "problem" of evil

Even if you warn someone of punishment beforehand, it can still be unjust to carry it out.

If you put someone in jail for life for a minor crime, that is unjust whether warned or not.

Let's see, who has eternal punishment? Hmmm? Who punishes generations of humans?

Quote: FrGamble

It seems like it is you who want to impose your unreasonable and false agenda on others and the sad fact is you are very successful in doing so.

Tell me that when I favor passing a law making abortion, drugs, contraceptives, prostitution and marriage mandatory.

Quote: Nareed

Tell me that when I favor passing a law making abortion, drugs, contraceptives, prostitution and marriage mandatory.

What about laws that forbid murder, lying, or stealing. Is that in some way imposing a moral code on society?

Quote: FrGamble

What about laws that forbid murder, lying, or stealing. Is that in some way imposing a moral code on society?

If lying were against the law, you'd get life in prison without parole.

A certain Thomas Jefferson made very clear that governments are instituted to protect rights. That should be the extent of the law. Contraception, abortion, prostitution, drugs, divorce, and more, do not threaten the rights of anyone, and should be none of the government's business.

Quote: Nareed

If lying were against the law, you'd get life in prison without parole.

A certain Thomas Jefferson made very clear that governments are instituted to protect rights. That should be the extent of the law. Contraception, abortion, prostitution, drugs, divorce, and more, do not threaten the rights of anyone, and should be none of the government's business.

I think that governments should do a little more than protect rights, they should also protect people and help them. We have things like welfare or social security that try to help people in their pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness. Abortion kills a developing human person, drugs destroy human lives as does no-fault divorce and prostitution.

Quote: FrGamble

I think that governments should do a little more than protect rights, they should also protect people and help them.

That is arguable, very arguable, because government works almost exclusively through coercion.

IN your case, though, it's the backdoor for imposing Christian morality on everyone.

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Abortion kills a developing human person,

If this were so, it would be a simple matter to argue the point in court and get all abortions banned as murder. The reason this hasn't happened, is that it's obvious that a fetus is not a person.

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drugs destroy human lives as does no-fault divorce and prostitution.

Package deal, n. The act of equating disparate things with bad and make them all seem bad through association.

Nice package deal, but obviously wrong.

Do you favor banning alcohol? Alcohol is a drug. And not just a drug, but a popular one. Did you see how well that worked in the 30s?

I would agree drugs and prostitution are bad things, but divorce isn't necessarily bad. Often having antagonistic people forced to remain married carries more problems than even the messiest divorce.

But that side, and in the first place, so what?

You claim your god lets us have free will to mess our lives in much worse ways than smoking pot or shooting heroin. Most drug addicts, as much as they hurt themselves, are not a threat to anyone. If we should be free to carry out genocide, surely small things like drugs are no big deal.

Besides, why making such things illegal, rather than trying to steer people away from them? Why does it have to be forced and coerced?

So, you see, you remain the enemy.

Quote: Nareed

That is arguable, very arguable, because government works almost exclusively through coercion.

IN your case, though, it's the backdoor for imposing Christian morality on everyone.

It is not my fault that Christian morality aligns so much with helping people. However, the nature and role of government is arguable and one worth having. I am a member of the American Solidarity Party and their policies very much align with mine. They are economically liberal and socially conservative, basically the opposite of the Libertarian party. Their motto is Common Sense, Common Ground, Common Good.

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If this were so, it would be a simple matter to argue the point in court and get all abortions banned as murder. The reason this hasn't happened, is that it's obvious that a fetus is not a person.

The reason this hasn't happened has nothing to do with simple matter of pointing out that a fetus is a developing person with unique DNA and a distinctly different person than the mother or father who only needs time and nourishment to live. That is proven by science fairly obviously. It is that abortion has become a HUGE business that men especially need to keep churning out abortions so that they can live consequence free from having sex with whoever they want. It is because it is convenient and easy to terminate a developing human life and it doesn't mess up people's careers and plans that keeps abortion so profitable, don't fool yourself.

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Do you favor banning alcohol? Alcohol is a drug. And not just a drug, but a popular one. Did you see how well that worked in the 30s?

Yeah keeping alcohol illegal and making pot decriminalized is something that in our culture we seem to need to do for lots of reasons.

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I would agree drugs and prostitution are bad things, but divorce isn't necessarily bad. Often having antagonistic people forced to remain married carries more problems than even the messiest divorce.

Nice package deal here. Drugs and prostitution are bad things, I agree. Shouldn't we legislate against these things then to help people? Legislation not only protects human rights but has a deterrent and teaching role as well. Wasn't it Jefferson who said if men were angels then they would not need a government?

I agree divorce is not necessarily bad, but no fault divorce is bad. If someone needs to they should easily be able to get out of an abusive and harmful marriage. However, breaking up a marriage and a family just because someone is tired of the person or is going through some type of mid-life crisis is a very bad thing. In these cases it should not be an easy thing at all.

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You claim your god lets us have free will to mess our lives in much worse ways than smoking pot or shooting heroin. Most drug addicts, as much as they hurt themselves, are not a threat to anyone. If we should be free to carry out genocide, surely small things like drugs are no big deal.

I would chuckle if you were not so wrong. Look at the percentage of people who are addicted to drugs that are in prison for things other than drugs and you will see that drugs are a threat to everyone. It leads to theft, cheating, and murder all the time. If we could get people off these heavy drugs like heroin and decriminalize marijuana the prison population would be lowered by huge amounts.

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Besides, why making such things illegal, rather than trying to steer people away from them? Why does it have to be forced and coerced?

Because of Original Sin. But in a secular sense because human beings often need help to avoid such evils. Especially when people who struggle with poverty also find themselves in broken homes without much education. The law is a way to help them avoid evils and teach them what is bad for them and society. The next step is to revamp our corrections system so that it is MUCH more focused on rehabilitation rather than punishment.

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So, you see, you remain the enemy

No more so than the truth is your enemy.

Quote: FrGamble

It is not my fault that Christian morality aligns so much with helping people.

Joe and Bill are talking and Bill says "Come the revolution, you'll have strawberries and cream!"

Joe says "I could you know, I just don't like them."

Unmoved, Bill replies, "Come the revolution, you'll have strawberries and cream and you will like it!"

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They are economically liberal and socially conservative, basically the opposite of the Libertarian party.

So basically they want to screw me with my own money.

Figures.

Quote: FrGamble

Because of Original Sin. But in a secular sense because human beings often need help to avoid such evils. Especially when people who struggle with poverty also find themselves in broken homes without much education..

Reverse engineering again. You see a problem,
and rather than ferret out the root cause, you
just paint it all with a broad brush and blame
it on god. In this case because god abandoned
us because of OS. This helps absolutely nobody
figure out the cause of poverty, but it does help
the Church, which is what really matters, of course.

Quote: Nareed

Joe and Bill are talking and Bill says "Come the revolution, you'll have strawberries and cream!"

Joe says "I could you know, I just don't like them."

Unmoved, Bill replies, "Come the revolution, you can have any dessert your heart desires except liverwurst and cyanide, that is not allowed."

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So basically they want to screw me with my own money.

Figures.

No, they want to use everyone's money so that nobody gets screwed.