The "problem" of evil

Quote: Nareed

What did millions of Jews in Europe did that was so bad for them, that Jehovah had to torture and kill them?

Are you really asking God this question? Again why can't you see that evil people can commit sin that leads to the death and torture of millions of innocent people. This is a serious issue and it shows that there is nothing more horrible than the reality of sin and the consequences it reaps on humanity.

Quote: FrGamble

Um...that is exactly what He did, remember the Garden of Eden. The only difference is that in Heaven there is Satan or tempter. Maybe there is something for us to learn about facing temptation and receiving forgiveness and mercy that is important for us. Maybe in overcoming temptation and sin we become more of the people God has created us to be. What you are suggesting is to put the cart before the horse. You present a world in which we stay spiritual infants and never reach our true potential.

So god was either unable to create us to our full potential in a land without temptation, or unwilling to do so.

We have to discard "unable" since he is all-powerful and all-knowing, which leaves us with unwilling, and the question you still haven't answered.

Why did he place Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, with temptation, knowing that they would fall and all of humanity would suffer as a result?

Were Adam and Eve spiritual infants? I thought you said they were perfect. If they were perfect, how could they be tempted?

Why were Adam and Eve not given the "presence of God" that you say people in heaven have, which makes them immune to temptation?

Since God had the power to do these things, but chose not to, I label him cruel.

You also keep trying to recharacterize what I am saying, trying to say I am against punishment for wrongdoing. I am not saying that at all.

I am saying God wanted us to fall, god wanted to punish us, and God wanted us to suffer. If he did not, the all-knowing god would not have put us into the situation in which he knew that was the only possibility and what was going to happen.

This is pretty basic logic here. He had to know, he had the power to do things differently but did not, therefore he had to want the outcome that happened.

Quote: rxwine

That's WAY TOO HARD, for a god who created the Universe. He must allow evil and have eternal hell, and punish millions of generations of people for Adam & Eve disobeying a command, and destroy the world of people and animals with a massive flood. And too much other crap to mention.
(sarcasm)

I know, it seems pretty basic, doesn't it?

Quote: rxwine

You keep forgetting god can reform the process itself.

God doesn't HAVE to let the process work the way it works now.

He had the ability to create two kinds of beings. (angels and humans) Gave one more power. He had the power to add in childbirth pain after the fall, or take it away. He has the ability to make it rain for 40 days and nights

God can provide spiritual growth in any way he chooses.

Saying he can only do things one way is BS.

Yeah, that is another way to say what I am trying to say.

Quote: FrGamble

Are you really asking God this question?

I'd say it's perfectly clear I'm asking you this question.

I'd as soon ask Jehovah as I'd ask the Wizard of Oz.

Quote:

Again why can't you see that evil people can commit sin that leads to the death and torture of millions of innocent people.

But it wasn't the Germans and the Poles and Romanians and Hungarians and the death camp "guards" who were tortured and killed, it was millions of mostly innocent victims. So what did they do to deserve such punishment from your god?

While we're at it, such people as were tried and convicted of these atrocities, were killed rather humanely and were not mistreated by the allies at all. So how come your gods let them get off easier than their victims?

Quote: FrGamble

Yes, but you keep forgetting God doesn't HAVE to let the process work the way YOU want it to. So far the only reason you seem to present as to why God's way is the wrong way is that there is suffering in the world. I feel that this is not a reasonable response and an emotional and understandable knee jerk reaction. I think it would be better to reasonably talk about why suffering in the world is allowed and what if anything can be gained from it.

Allowing us to suffer, while asking us to worship him in order to be allowed into heaven where there is no evil and suffering, is cruel.

Quote: Dalex64

Why did he place Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, with temptation, knowing that they would fall and all of humanity would suffer as a result?

Because He also knew that He would save us and that our sickness would not be unto death. There is something important I think in resisting temptation rather than just always being shielded from it. Are you really free to sin if there is no choice available to do so even if you wanted to?

Quote:

Were Adam and Eve spiritual infants? I thought you said they were perfect. If they were perfect, how could they be tempted?

Remember what I defined as perfection for a human being, namely growth in knowledge and love. So yes, Adam and Eve were perfect morally but not perfect in their growth of love and knowledge. Heck, Adam was just getting to know Eve when the stuff went down. Being tempted is not related to being perfect, even the perfect can get tempted, it is actually part of the growing in knowledge and love that I mentioned earlier. Do you think that we could be perfect without being tempted or challenged? Isn't the challenges we face how we get better at anything?

Quote:

Why were Adam and Eve not given the "presence of God" that you say people in heaven have, which makes them immune to temptation?

They were given the "presence of God" that people have in Heaven. If I said that this makes people immune to temptation I was wrong. The only thing that really makes us immune to temptation is the removal of said temptation.

Quote:

Since God had the power to do these things, but chose not to, I label him cruel.

I think you can see from above that God chose what was best for us as human beings.

Quote:

You also keep trying to recharacterize what I am saying, trying to say I am against punishment for wrongdoing. I am not saying that at all.

Good, glad we are the same page here.

Quote:

I am saying God wanted us to fall, god wanted to punish us, and God wanted us to suffer. If he did not, the all-knowing god would not have put us into the situation in which he knew that was the only possibility and what was going to happen.

I am saying God wanted us to be in a loving and trusting relationship with Him so that we could avoid the fall and that God never wanted to punish us or suffer. Rather God in His all powerful and all knowing love knew how to redeem us and help us to regain our trusting and loving relationship with Him despite the presence of temptation and sin.

Quote:

This is pretty basic logic here. He had to know, he had the power to do things differently but did not, therefore he had to want the outcome that happened.

It is pretty basic and it is true He wanted the outcome that happened, namely that He would save us in Jesus Christ and eliminate the burden of sin and its consequence by taking it upon Himself.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes, but you keep forgetting God doesn't HAVE to let the process work the way YOU want it to.

All of a sudden, I'm tiring of all this nonsense.
God doesn't do anything, there is no god. Why
I'm even reading this crap is beyond me. It's
like discussing which of Santa's elves make
the most toys, and does he pay his elves.

God isn't real, why do would I care about the
details of the Church's fantasy.

Quote: FrGamble

So far the only reason you seem to present as to why God's way is the wrong way is that there is suffering in the world.

Suffering through your explanations is no picnic.

"God granted Satan permission to strip Job of his possessions and his family and to afflict him with excruciating boils."

If I am in charge of the lion cage at the Zoo and intentionally leave it unlocked, who is responsible when the lions attack a visitor?