The "problem" of evil

How many times does God violate the "Golden Rule" anyway?

Quote: rxwine

How many times does God violate the "Golden Rule" anyway?

I try to focus on one inconsistency at a time.

Quote: FrGamble

Interesting question. I believe you still have free will in Heaven but having reached the ultimate in happiness and joy - more than we can ever imagine - your will has become so in tune with the Lord that coupled with the lack of temptation and the fullness of Grace there is no sin.

http://diversitytomorrow.com/thread/1586/12/#post43235

God did not want to create us in a state of ultimate happiness and joy. He did not want us to be free of evil, temptation, sin, and suffering. Heck, at first he even forgot to make a woman so we could go forth and multiply.

His first attempt at creating a human society went so badly that he wiped everyone out but one family, and then even they committed a sin against another and as punishment his innocent son was sold into slavery.

Things got so bad again, he sent his own son/himself down to sacrifice himself for our sins so we would have a path to salvation, but without removing original sin or temptation, and without bringing us so in tune with his will and full of grace that there is no sin. So we don't lose our free will. Which apparently we don't when we are in that state in heaven.

These explainations (not just these, there is much more) are inconsistent and illogical.

What we are told is god's desire and motivation is not consistent with god's actions and inactions.

If our explainations of what God is, what God wants, and what God does are so inconsistent, it reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of God. Not a little misunderstanding, not an imperfect understanding, but one that must be significantly incorrect.

Quote: rxwine

If I am in charge of the lion cage at the Zoo and intentionally leave it unlocked, who is responsible when the lions attack a visitor?

I think your analogy would be more appropriate if you were in charge of the lion cage at the Zoo and you locked it up tight but a visitor climbs over the fence and enters the lion cage. Who is responsible when the lions attack the visitor?

Quote: FrGamble

I think your analogy would be more appropriate if you were in charge of the lion cage at the Zoo and you locked it up tight but a visitor climbs over the fence and enters the lion cage. Who is responsible when the lions attack the visitor?

There was nothing incorrect about it.

Quote: Dalex64

Things got so bad again, he sent his own son/himself down to sacrifice himself for our sins so we would have a path to salvation, but without removing original sin or temptation, and without bringing us so in tune with his will and full of grace that there is no sin. So we don't lose our free will. Which apparently we don't when we are in that state in heaven.

God leaves it up to us to become more and more in tune with His will. He gives us the grace and help to do this, but He does not and will not make us do so.

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These explainations (not just these, there is much more) are inconsistent and illogical.

I continue to not see the inconsistencies and lack of logic in regards to God's plan, but then again I am brainwashed apparently.

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What we are told is god's desire and motivation is not consistent with god's actions and inactions.

What is much more true is that our desire and motivation is not consistent with God's desire and motivations.

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If our explainations of what God is, what God wants, and what God does are so inconsistent, it reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of God. Not a little misunderstanding, not an imperfect understanding, but one that must be significantly incorrect.

This is soooooo true! God is a father and He frustratingly will not use His power to keep us from temptation and making mistakes. He doesn't even change the world to make it perfect for us. We have this view of God that because He can do anything that He should just snap His fingers and make everything perfect for us. We don't look at Him as a Father or a Friend (Jesus) or a guide (Holy Spirit) we look at Him as a superhero who should save us from all evil and suffering. I recognize that this is a natural desire for us and as Evenbob has pointed out he knows many Christians who treat God this way and thank Him for every open parking spot or discount they find in a store. I think the inconsistencies and illogical actions you see are connected to this fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of God and what He wants. He wants friendship and a deep personal intimate relationship with you more than anything else.

No, he should not snap his fingers and make everything perfect for us, it should have been perfect in the first place.

It could have been. He chose to give us evil and suffering instead. And you blame Satan, Adam, and Eve for it all.

Quote: FrGamble

God leaves it up to us to become more and more in tune with His will. He gives us the grace and help to do this, but He does not and will not make us do so.

That's what's wrong with your whole faith. The idea that every person's ultimate ambition should be to "be in tune with his will." That's all we should live for, no exceptions. And if you don't, you'll suffer horrible consequences.

How is that not tyranny?

You're created for the express purpose of doing as the gods say, or to suffer the consequences if you refuse. There's no freedom, no relevance to free will, and no reason to pick either choice.

It's such a bleak, horrible view, no wonder most Christians don't take it seriously.

Quote: Nareed

That's what's wrong with your whole faith. The idea that every person's ultimate ambition should be to "be in tune with his will." That's all we should live for, no exceptions. And if you don't, you'll suffer horrible consequences.

How is that not tyranny?

It is not tyranny because what you most want to do and what brings you the most true joy and happiness is what God's will is for you. It is what He created you for and nothing will make you more joyful and fulfilled. God's will and what brings us the greatest peace are the same.

Quote:

You're created for the express purpose of doing as the gods say, or to suffer the consequences if you refuse. There's no freedom, no relevance to free will, and no reason to pick either choice.

This is the negative view and a perfect expression of what Original Sin is all about. Eve was asking herself, "Who is God to tell me what to do, I can make my own decisions thank you very much." You can certainly look at it this way if you view God as an enemy rather than a most loving father, who is not wanting you to do his will just because he feels like it, or because he wants you to jump through a hoop, or because he has some self-esteem issues. No a loving father wants you to be the best unique and awesome person you were created to be and he might have an insight into the person you are and what will make you very happy. He certainly knows what will hurt you and cause you pain.

Quote: Nareed

It's such a bleak, horrible view, no wonder most Christians don't take it seriously.

Ever see portrait pictures taken in the
19th century? In most of them, people
look grim, they rarely smile. This is done
on purpose. To Christians, a smiling
person in public meant you aren't a
serious person. Jesus died for you, this
life is a grim one of toil and suffering.
To look like you were a happy person
was a direct insult to Jesus.

Photographers at the time would tell
people 'no smiling if you want to be
taken seriously'. If you walked around
all day with quick smile, you were often
considered an idiot. And you certainly
never smiled in church.

These pics are typical, even the kids are
grim. It wasn't a hard and fast rule, but
Christians typically didn't smile in photos.

It is strange, no matter what faith or absence of faith someone had back in the day nobody seemed to smile in any picture. Its weird and since Evenbob is as usual totally wrong about the reason I wish I knew why.