Is the PC "Dying"?

Quote: tupp

If it's any consolation, the Linux world already went through this scenario a few years ago with the Gnome 3 fiasco, although there was much less suffering because of Linux's desktop diversity.

I can see advantages to having many versions of the same OS available. But there are also many disadvantages. You get confussion, indecision, and other drawbacks. Chiefly whenever I read just about anything about Linux by and for Linux enthusiasts, I pretty much feel I'm trying to make sense fo Etruscan written in Chinese characters.

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Floating app menus are prevalent in many open source desktop/window managers, and most of them will overlap over existing windows, although one usually must right-click on a blank part of the desktop for the floating menu to appear. The non-floating version of the main menu can be accessed on most taskbars with button similar to the Windows "Start" button.

Yes, like that :)

Have you ever been working when you decide you need something which requires you to get up from your desk? It might be something crucial, like a contract you need to consult for your present work, or something relatively trivial such as maybe you need a pencil. So you get up and are then interrupted. Not necessarily by something major like a phone call. It may be just that someone called out a greeting, or someone asked you a question. So you deal with the interruption, and are then left with this thought "What was I doing?"

This happens to me sometimes when I have to remove from the screen whatever it is I'm working on. That's why I hate the whole idea of a whole screen as a start menu.

Quote: Nareed

I can see advantages to having many versions of the same OS available. But there are also many disadvantages. You get confussion, indecision, and other drawbacks.

The confusion only comes in choosing a distro. Once you have made your choice, the confusion disappears.

Furthermore, such a decision is not a huge deal -- it doesn't cost anything to try several distros, and installing most distros is easy.

Quote: Nareed

Chiefly whenever I read just about anything about Linux by and for Linux enthusiasts, I pretty much feel I'm trying to make sense fo Etruscan written in Chinese characters.

The terms may be unfamiliar, but most of the things that they mention you would probably recognize if you saw them.

Quote: Nareed

Have you ever been working when you decide you need something which requires you to get up from your desk? It might be something crucial, like a contract you need to consult for your present work, or something relatively trivial such as maybe you need a pencil. So you get up and are then interrupted. Not necessarily by something major like a phone call. It may be just that someone called out a greeting, or someone asked you a question. So you deal with the interruption, and are then left with this thought "What was I doing?"

Yes. Senility has hit me hard in the past few years, and this sort of thing happens all the time.

Quote: Nareed

This happens to me sometimes when I have to remove from the screen whatever it is I'm working on. That's why I hate the whole idea of a whole screen as a start menu.

That's Etruscan written in Chinese to me. I have little knowledge of how the Windows start menu works past Windows 98.

However, if you start to use virtual desktops (in Windows, Mac or Linux), I think that you will find that most of such occurrences will disappear. You don't have to change your desktop/window layout nor change the window focus to open a menu (whether using the menu button on the task bar or a floating menu). You can just switch to a blank desktop and do what you need to do, and then just go back to the previous desktop with your windows/focus undisturbed, exactly as you left it.

Quote: tupp

The confusion only comes in choosing a distro. Once you have made your choice, the confusion disappears.

I hope so.

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The terms may be unfamiliar, but most of the things that they mention you would probably recognize if you saw them.

Hmm, no. Seriously, some things are highly technical even in casual conversations. Mark my words: there will be a relatively large migration of Windows refugees towards Linux; and we'll drive you old pros crazy.

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That's Etruscan written in Chinese to me. I have little knowledge of how the Windows start menu works past Windows 98.

Well, all Windows versions up to 7 (seven is higher than 98??? <w>) are pretty much the same. Win 8 looks like a caleidoscope got severly ill on the screen. I rather like calidoscopes, and even made a few long, long, long ago. I resent seeing them abused this way :P

Here's my latest prediction:

Microsoft will keep trying to kill the desktop, but third-party software companies will keep on making programs that give you the desktop back. This at least as long as Win8 lasts. As I understand it, even "Modern"-specific "apps" can be run on windows (I mean real windows), but I'm uncertain whether they run ont he desktop or in the "Modern" interface.

The latter is very important. I figure some people, like me, would prefer to run only the desktop.

Of course then the big question is what happens when Win9 comes out. If it's a mere "refinement" of Win8, then there's no problem. If it comes without a desktop, then we'll see whether third-party programs can keep the desktop alive.

The elephant in the room (or would that be the blue whale in the room?) is: if these small companies can quickly and, in some cases, freely restore the desktop, why doesn't Microsoft do so as well? (Come to think of it that would be a herd of elephants riding a pod of blue whales in the room).

My personal big question is: do I abandon Microsoft or not? If I can run a decent desktop on Win8 and never, ever, ever, ever, ever, and I mean never, ever, ever, ever, seriously, never, have to even look at the "Modern" interface, then there's no problem. Is there?

It depends. Can I run "Modern"-specific "apps" in the desktop? Why should that matter? Well, it would save some time in tweaking, and it's likely some important programs, such as Office, will, keeping with MS's insanity, migrate to "Modern" in their next version.

This might or might not be a dealbreaker. Still, it's also not a reason for going out and splurging money on a Win8 desktop. So I'm going to do, for now, what I've been trying to avoid all along: switch to Linux.

Quote: tupp

However, if you start to use virtual desktops (in Windows, Mac or Linux), I think that you will find that most of such occurrences will disappear. You don't have to change your desktop/window layout nor change the window focus to open a menu (whether using the menu button on the task bar or a floating menu). You can just switch to a blank desktop and do what you need to do, and then just go back to the previous desktop with your windows/focus undisturbed, exactly as you left it.

I meant the way Win8 works. Say you're on the desktop running Excel, then want to open a program that's not pinned to your taskbar or on the desktop. You need to go to the Start Screen, which means leaving the desktop and having the caleidoscope emesis all over your view, locate the program and launch it, then return to the desktop. By then you might no longer remember who you are, much less what you were doing ;)

On other things, there's a kind of sense that MS has realized it made a grave mistake with Win8 and is trying to fix it. I disagree, strongly.

Microsoft has realized it made a mistake with Win8, but it's trying to push it through anyway. Fixing it would mean splitting the two interfaces altogether and letting us work in a desktop only. Instead the geniuses at Redmond are making symbolic gestures while telling you "The "Modern" interface is the way of the future. Get used to it."

Now, as I said previously MS doesn't owe me a decent operating system. Adn it's certainly free, as a corporation, to do whatever the hell it wants. If it wants to release Win9 as touch only without any possible support for a mouse, it may do so. Going back to the New Coke analogy, which is apt on many levels, Coke could have revived the Classic Coke can but filled it with New coke swill. What many poeple dislike, most especially me, is to be given no choices, where choices should be available by all rational measure.

Consider the matter of touch:

1) It's not a convenient means of input on a desktop or laptop
2) It's limited in the best of cases and requires additional utilities
3) The vast majority of existing hardware, desktop and laptop, is not touch enabled
4) Using your fingers on the monitor will leave spots and streaks which will obscure your view
5) Touch enabled monitors are more expensive

So why, with all these factors against it, does MS choose to make a touch based interface for PCs and laptops? It's as irrational as making a highly portable tablet which requires a mouse and keyboard to operate.

So, shouldn't MS have rather made an OS for touch devices and another for non-touch devices? I don't care how much tablets are gaining on PCs, the solution is not to treat the desktop as a tablet.

Of course, trying to see MS's point, one can conclude that having two compatible but different operating systems would be rather expensive. So the solution I see is what the third-party software companies have come up with: a fully enabled, mouse-driven desktop alongside the tablet interface, but with a wall of separation between them; the permeability of the wall determined by the user.

Wait. isn't that what Win8 is?

Not even close. Win8 has the two interfaces, yes, but there is a bias towards the "Modern" one, and the desktop has been pretty much crippled as a result (I do not believe Microsoft's claim that their research determined removing the start menu was a grand idea).

One other thing. MS has been boasting about having sold 100 million Win8 licenses. That seems impresive, until you recall this number includes all machines made with Win8 included. It does not represent the number of machines in use with Win8. Worse yet, it doesn't include Win8 machines in use which have been upgraded to Win7, machines which have had a shell installed to make them behave as nythign but a a Win8 machine, and machines whose owners gave up and switched to Linux.

The number MS has not disclosed is how many Win8 activations there have been. That's certain to be much lower. Some guesstimates put it at around 45+ million.

To summarize: MS took a big risk with Win8. It failed. Here I'll compare it to Ford taking a risk on the Edsel. Both are innovative products which departed in usability from what existed previously, and both were intended to target a specific market segment. Both also failed. The difference is that Ford had other car divisions and never tried to change all of them to an Edsel-like product, so its failure was less costly. MS's bottom line is this: Win8 was intended to "save" the PC. PC sales are way down from last year. Do the math.

Quote: Nareed

I meant the way Win8 works. Say you're on the desktop running Excel, then want to open a program that's not pinned to your taskbar or on the desktop. You need to go to the Start Screen, which means leaving the desktop and having the caleidoscope emesis all over your view, locate the program and launch it, then return to the desktop. By then you might no longer remember who you are, much less what you were doing ;)

I think that I understand the problem that you describe, and the scenario is close to what I imagined when I recommended using virtual desktops.

I have no doubt that virtual desktops will completely solve this problem (and other problems, too). Such a feature will probably be more useful to you than floating/overlapping app menus. If you use virtual desktops (properly) for a week, you will never go back to navigating through a bunch of overlapping windows on a single desktop.

In regards to using a third party desktop (or window manager) with Windows, I think that such software runs on top of the Windows graphics code. If so, you would be using more memory by adding another graphics layer.

Windows 8.1 public preview June 26th
Will be interesting to see how many of your problems it addresses...

Quote: tupp

Such a feature will probably be more useful to you than floating/overlapping app menus. If you use virtual desktops (properly) for a week, you will never go back to navigating through a bunch of overlapping windows on a single desktop.

I do hope you make it to WoVCon ]I[, because I really would like to see you again, and we need to ahve a nice long chat with pictures on napkins and all :)

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In regards to using a third party desktop (or window manager) with Windows, I think that such software runs on top of the Windows graphics code. If so, you would be using more memory by adding another graphics layer.

You know, I hadn't thought of that. I've read a fair bit about them, and there are no complaints about the PC slowing down as a result. So it may not use up too much in the way of system resources. But even if it does, if I were stuck with using a Win8 machine I'd either install one of these fixes or smash the offending computer to bits (or is that bytes?)

Quote: chickenman

Windows 8.1 public preview June 26th
Will be interesting to see how many of your problems it addresses...

From all I've read about it, and granted the final release is bound to be different, it addresses half of one minor concern.

By now all news and comments you find repeat endlessly stuff that's been floating about since the word "Blue" first made it to the news (and that ahs to be late March, because Google made an April Fool's video about "Gmail Blue"). It boils down mainly to: 1)Control manager will move entirely to "Modern," 2) there will be a start button, but it will only launch the start screen and 3) PC will be able to boot directly to desktop. the problem si that 1 and 2 add up to negating the usefulness of 3. besides, I wouldn't mind, much, if I had to boot to the "Modern" screen and then click one (ugh) tile to get out of there. So that's half of a minor concern.

Major concerns like being able to work without having to deal with the "Modern" interface at all, having a proper start menu, not having to tweak the system extensively, not having to deal with the "charms" bar, and pretty much not having to install Classic Shell or Start8, are absent.

It's possible things could change between now and the anouncement. It's possible, too, that the leaks have been misdirection. But I don't think either one is likely at all. The last thing Microsoft should do now is build expectations it won't meet.

I've made a Xubuntu (who the hell is responsible for these ridiculous names and what hasn't he been brought up with charges anyway?) boot "CD" (it's actually a DVD), and am researching for alternatives. Over the course of my vacation, I'll be experimenting with at least two other Linux flavors.

We'll see how it goes. I foresee a great deal of dissatisfaction, frustration and unhappiness handling the computer at home for the coming years, but there's a faint, nontrivial chance some variant of Linux might work out (either way I wonder if I could sue Microsoft for infliction of emotional distress; I figure they might pay me a few thousands just to go away).