First Principles

February 17th, 2020 at 12:13:17 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You don't stop loving them if it is truly unconditional, but it hurts


But you forgive them, no conditions,
you don't hold it against them. You
don't deprive them, you don't punish
them later like god does. This is why
unconditional love doesn't exist, it's
a fantasy. Even a parents love has it's
limits. Everybody has a point they get
to with love that says 'no more'.
A god loving you unconditionally is
not a useful god. It means you
wouldn't even have to know of his
existence because you can do no
wrong. There are no conditions
attached that you can violate and
fall out of grace with him.

Quote:
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
3 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God,.


What does this or any of the passages
you quoted have to do with gods love
having no conditions attached to it.
You can still love an offspring and want
nothing to do with them, you know.
Happens all the time. I still love a woman
I dated in the 70's, but I don't want to
be around her. Unconditional love is
a selling technique, it doesn't exist in
reality. All love has strings attached to
it. Especially your gods love.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 17th, 2020 at 12:18:29 PM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019
Quote: FrGamble
Am I missing something?


Never, you are 100% correct, I am changing my viewpoint and will now worship your "God"
February 17th, 2020 at 12:28:15 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble

Is it logical that God exists?
Yes.


Only if you change the meaning
of the word 'logic'. Just like you
changed the meaning of 'proof'.
With your new word meanings,
anything is possible.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 17th, 2020 at 4:50:42 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Only if you change the meaning
of the word 'logic'. Just like you
changed the meaning of 'proof'.
With your new word meanings,
anything is possible.


I didn't change anything. I think the type of 'proof' you are asking for in regards to God is something that you would never ask for anything else in your life. You believe all kinds of falsities about the Church that you accept without even getting close to proof. You believe that there is no God without proof. You believe the brakes in your car will work and the food you eat is not poisoned without proof. Absolute proof is something we find in the abstract world of mathematics and logical syllogisms. I think we both have the same definition of proof but you think it is necessary to believe in something and I do not.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 17th, 2020 at 4:54:39 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
But you forgive them, no conditions,
you don't hold it against them. You
don't deprive them, you don't punish
them later like god does.


I'm alarmed that you think punishment and consequences mean that you don't love someone. Where you never disciplined as a kid? In a school I worked at we had kids purposely getting in trouble just so they could be reminded that someone loved them and cared about them because they could get away with anything at home. They didn't feel loved. Unconditional love is not permission to take advantage of someone and do whatever you want, even things that hurt yourself and others.




Quote:
What does this or any of the passages
you quoted have to do with gods love
having no conditions attached to it.


Read them and you will see. Love with no strings attached. Read in particular what happens when the prodigal son returns home. What does the father do? There is your unconditional love and an image of God's love.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 17th, 2020 at 8:24:05 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
I didn't change anything. I think the type of 'proof' you are asking for in regards to God is something that you would never ask for anything else in your life.


Not at all. Proof is proof, it's
irrefutable. Your 'proof'
consists of arguments and
theories built around the
arguments with a lot of
hope and wishful thinking
thrown in. Most of your 'proof'
consists of anecdotal unverifiable
testimonies of people who
claim a god experience. Useless
as proof of anything other than
a vivid imagination.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 17th, 2020 at 8:39:35 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Can you name anything in your life that you believe for which you have irrefutable proof?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 17th, 2020 at 8:42:07 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
I'm alarmed that you think punishment and consequences mean that you don't love someone.


Did you even read what I wrote?
You can love an offspring and
not want to be in the same room
with them. That is love because
you have no choice. it's not all
forgiving non judging unconditional
love. Jesus is supposedly god:

"Jesus himself said that receiving his love is based on condition, specifically the condition of following his commandments (example at John chapter 15 verses 10 and 14). Other conditions are found throughout the Bible"


Quote:
Read them and you will see. Love with no strings attached. .


Actually there are Xtians who argue
both sides, conditions and no
conditions.

"The term unconditional love is not explicitly used in the Bible, and advocates for God's conditional or unconditional love, using different passages or interpretations to support their point of view, are both encountered. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_love#Religious_perspective

As I said before, you're taking
passages and making them
say what you want them to
say. You can make them say
whatever you want, this is
why the Bible is so unreliable
as proof of anything.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 18th, 2020 at 8:12:01 AM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019
A "true believer" friend of mine sent this to me
I stopped arguing with him




However, I also proposed the old "Can God make a rock that is to heavy for him to lift?" and he referred me to this article which made me LOL even more
https://crossexamined.org/can-god-create-a-rock-so-heavy-that-he-cannot-lift-it/
February 18th, 2020 at 11:25:58 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: aceofspades
A "true believer" friend of mine sent this to me
I stopped arguing with him



I like your friend.


However, I also proposed the old "Can God make a rock that is to heavy for him to lift?" and he referred me to this article which made me LOL even more
https://crossexamined.org/can-god-create-a-rock-so-heavy-that-he-cannot-lift-it/
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (