The Coronavirus thread

Quote: JCW09

Other than Germany, what country in the Western World of any significant population has done dramatically better than the US?

So many qualifications

Western World: Why wouldn't we compare our performance to any country. We have money and and scientific resources unmatched by any country. We also had more warning than Asian countries. But if we must, let's exclude Asia, Africa and Australia.

Significant population: Exclude countries with less than 2 million population

Dramatically better: Exclude countries whose deaths per million is not 25% better than the US.

Here is a list (Paco-style)

Country Deaths/ M Pop
USA 465
Mexico 348
Panama 318
Ecuador 318
Canada 236
Bolivia 233
Switzerland 229
North Macedonia 228
Moldova 188
Colombia 186
Portugal 169
Honduras 122
Romania 118
Germany 110
Denmark 106
Dominican Republic 103
Guatemala 102
Bosnia and Herzegovina 96
Russia 94
Austria 79
Argentina 73
Turkey 67
El Salvador 66
Serbia 64
Hungary 62
Finland 59
Belarus 58
Slovenia 56
Bulgaria 53
Albania 52
Norway 47
Poland 45
Ukraine 38
Czech Republic 35
Croatia 34
Lithuania 29
Costa Rica 26
Greece 19
Nicaragua 17
Haiti 14
Uruguay 10
Cuba 8
Paraguay 6
Slovakia 5
Venezuela 5
Georgia 4
Jamaica 3

Quote: AZDuffman

Libertarians will generally hate HOAs as well as conservatives. HOAs appeal to people who like to make and enforce rules. It seems as though you prefer to be told what to do because you are afraid of people not keeping their lawn the way you want them to.

Who says anything about Libertarians hating rules? We like rules. The Non-Aggression Principle is a rule. The majority of us also very much like private property and increasing its valuation. We also like control over things to be as localized as possible. We also like free association.

RULES: The HOA makes rules that are agreed upon by a segment of the community. There are often provisions to vote out the leader of the HOA, almost immediately, if the HOA members decide the leader is not doing very well.

PRIVATE PROPERTY: We like private property. HOA's pertain to private property, or those who rent the property within an HOA, if such is permitted.

LOCAL CONTROL: This is at an even more local level than city/township/village control. This is a small segment of one of those things that dictates its own policies for itself. I would assume that most rules (or getting rid of/altering rules) are put to a vote.

FREE ASSOCIATION: If you do not like the HOA, then do not buy property associated with an HOA. By purchasing the property (or creating an HOA in the first place) you are freely associating with the HOA and are agreeing, by vote, to all be held to the same standards for the upkeep of your property.

COMMUNITY BUILDING: HOA's would also build a sense of community in that the folks in the HOA basically have to talk to each other once in a while. I imagine friendships are also formed this way along with the many benefits of having friends. Your fellow residents might look after your pets if you leave town and they're not people you're afraid to give a key.

So, I don't pretend to speak for Conservatives, but I couldn't see why an individual Libertarian would be against the concept of HOA's. Individual Libertarians might not like them, or might not like certain ones, but I can't see where they would have a problem with the concept.

Quote: Mission146

Who says anything about Libertarians hating rules? We like rules. The Non-Aggression Principle is a rule. The majority of us also very much like private property and increasing its valuation. We also like control over things to be as localized as possible. We also like free association.

RULES: The HOA makes rules that are agreed upon by a segment of the community. There are often provisions to vote out the leader of the HOA, almost immediately, if the HOA members decide the leader is not doing very well.

PRIVATE PROPERTY: We like private property. HOA's pertain to private property, or those who rent the property within an HOA, if such is permitted.

LOCAL CONTROL: This is at an even more local level than city/township/village control. This is a small segment of one of those things that dictates its own policies for itself. I would assume that most rules (or getting rid of/altering rules) are put to a vote.

FREE ASSOCIATION: If you do not like the HOA, then do not buy property associated with an HOA. By purchasing the property (or creating an HOA in the first place) you are freely associating with the HOA and are agreeing, by vote, to all be held to the same standards for the upkeep of your property.

COMMUNITY BUILDING: HOA's would also build a sense of community in that the folks in the HOA basically have to talk to each other once in a while. I imagine friendships are also formed this way along with the many benefits of having friends. Your fellow residents might look after your pets if you leave town and they're not people you're afraid to give a key.

So, I don't pretend to speak for Conservatives, but I couldn't see why an individual Libertarian would be against the concept of HOA's. Individual Libertarians might not like them, or might not like certain ones, but I can't see where they would have a problem with the concept.

Exactly you can never be forced to be in an HOA. All HOAs formed are consensual. If you own property not in an HOA, you can never be forced to join an HOA (even if everyone around you does).

If you are in an HOA you either willingly bought property in one or joined one, either way it was your choice.

People always jump all over the HOA horror stories. But, the reality is the vast majority of HOA owners are happy and like the way the rules are (that is generally why they move there....)

Don't move into a strict HOA and then get upset when they send you a notice to mow your lawn after months (usually they send multiple notices before fining you.....)

Quote: Gandler

People always jump all over the HOA horror stories. But, the reality is the vast majority of HOA owners are happy and like the way the rules are (that is generally why they move there....)

I tend to doubt this. Most people likely just accept life under their HOA as in many parts of the USA all newer stock is under HOA control. The do not move there because they "like the rules" they move there because there are limited options. |

The people who like HOAs are the people who were rats for the teacher in school. Who want to be in charge of the useless committee at work. They are the Karens of this world.

Quote: AZDuffman

I tend to doubt this. Most people likely just accept life under their HOA as in many parts of the USA all newer stock is under HOA control. The do not move there because they "like the rules" they move there because there are limited options. |

The people who like HOAs are the people who were rats for the teacher in school. Who want to be in charge of the useless committee at work. They are the Karens of this world.

Or maybe some people just like living in a clean community?

There is such thing as free association and people have a right to make rules against having beer cans coating your front lawn....

I am not an expert on every state, but everywhere I have lived has had endless non HOA options (HOAs tended to be the exception not the norm).... To get into an HOA, you often need to buy a new house that is being developed into a planned community....
Its rare for HOAs to form for existing property (and require the consent of all owners, you cannot be forced into it).....

You clearly hate HOAs which is fine, don't move into one, its simple...

Quote: AZDuffman

The people who like HOAs are the people who were rats for the teacher in school. Who want to be in charge of the useless committee at work. They are the Karens of this world.

Very true.

Also, he's relatively young, and I bet that he doesn't own (and has never owned) a house before. If he actually had to deal with HOA's, I'm sure he'd have a different view.

He kinda reminds me of the kids in college who preached socialism, yet they never actually experienced it firsthand. 🙄

Quote: Gandler

Or maybe some people just like living in a clean community?

Most communities are clean. The difference is in an HOA you have Karen checking every little thing.

Quote:

I am not an expert on every state, but everywhere I have lived has had endless non HOA options (HOAs tended to be the exception not the norm).... To get into an HOA, you often need to buy a new house that is being developed into a planned community....
Its rare for HOAs to form for existing property (and require the consent of all owners, you cannot be forced into it).....

You clearly hate HOAs which is fine, don't move into one, its simple...

You are right, you are not an expert. In "newer" parts of the USA, like the southwest, new developments usually require the formation of a HOA. IOW, you cannot build a development on 100 acres without forming one. In "older" parts, like the northeast, plenty of housing stock was built before HOA living became a norm. HOAs really did not exist until the idea of a condo developed. In condos you need some kind of association. For detached homes you really do not.

Yes, I hate them. I have seen the horror stories. I understand the liability you take on when you move into one. I see the potential for financial abuse. I think you need to be nuts to like them. I think you have to be Karen to like them.

Quote: AZDuffman

Most communities are clean. The difference is in an HOA you have Karen checking every little thing.

You are right, you are not an expert. In "newer" parts of the USA, like the southwest, new developments usually require the formation of a HOA. IOW, you cannot build a development on 100 acres without forming one. In "older" parts, like the northeast, plenty of housing stock was built before HOA living became a norm. HOAs really did not exist until the idea of a condo developed. In condos you need some kind of association. For detached homes you really do not.

Yes, I hate them. I have seen the horror stories. I understand the liability you take on when you move into one. I see the potential for financial abuse. I think you need to be nuts to like them. I think you have to be Karen to like them.

I think it's fair to speculate that enough people like/tolerate HOA's well-enough to justify the building of developments that are already part of an HOA. If not, then nobody would buy the properties and they would stop building properties that were already HOA as your developments sitting empty is not profitable.

Anyway, if you hate them, you have plenty of alternative options. Honestly, I don't even plan to own again, much less own a property associated with an HOA...but that's just me. It also has nothing to do with the HOA; I simply think owning a place is a huge pain in the @$$.

Quote: Mission146

I think it's fair to speculate that enough people like/tolerate HOA's well-enough to justify the building of developments that are already part of an HOA. If not, then nobody would buy the properties and they would stop building properties that were already HOA as your developments sitting empty is not profitable.

Have you been reading my posts? Regulations are requiring HOAs.

Quote:

Anyway, if you hate them, you have plenty of alternative options. Honestly, I don't even plan to own again, much less own a property associated with an HOA...but that's just me. It also has nothing to do with the HOA; I simply think owning a place is a huge pain in the @$$.

Renting lessens headaches. And folks like myself need renters.

Quote: AZDuffman

Have you been reading my posts? Regulations are requiring HOAs.



Renting lessens headaches. And folks like myself need renters.

Whose regulations? Even if that's true, that will stop happening if nobody buys the properties off of the developer.

It absolutely does lessen headaches! The best part is, by renting furnished places, you can move anytime you want with very minimal hassle, as long as your lease is completed or has transitioned to month-to-month.