Original Sin?

God exists because good and evil do exist outside of our opinions and concepts. Why you are not frightened about your moral theory is beyond me? You are allowing that if in someone's opinion your money was more important to them than your life their robbery and murder of you is a good thing!?! The universe needs a moral light and that is implanted in us a human beings. I don't take comfort or solace in the fact that God exists, I know that as surely as you seem to think he doesn't. I do take comfort however that because He exists morality is grounded in something more solid and firm than the whims of one Evenbob.


Oh, my Lord if you say you believe in reincarnation I think my head will explode from your hypocrisy.

Quote: FrGamble

good and evil do exist outside of our opinions and concepts.

No they don't and you can't prove they
do. A concept is just that, it has no life
of it's own outside of us. And no, I don't
believe reincarnation is real. Just another
religious concept.

Quote: FrGamble

Oh, my Lord if you say you believe in reincarnation I think my head will explode from your hypocrisy.

Reincarnation would be a neat thing to have. In some ways better than a "perfect" after life.

I forget the title of a novella dealing with reincarnation by the late H. Beam Piper (the man who can use the phrase "Society of Assassins" and make it seem reasonable). He treats the matter scientifically, offering experiments showing proof of it. Then all hell breaks loose in that world due to its political divisions.

Clarke does a kind of technological reincarnation, but that's really a recreation of someone. And that is a fascinating philosophical issue as well. briefly: if I make a "perfect copy of your mind and put it in a "perfect" replica of your body after you die, are you still alive? (of course you're not, and I can prove it).

Thou shalt not kill.

Where did that message come from? Who made that rule? The universe, God, or Man?

I thought I was pretty clear on this one - the bible says it came from God.

If instead it came from the universe, then you just gave God a demotion.

I didn't think it was the universe's job to care for and love man, I thought that also came from God.

I think I understand your problems with EvenBob's statements, that without God we have no moral compass.

Transferring that moral compass to the universe - and saying without that, we are lost - has me really confused. I don't think I have ever heard anyone say something like that.

Quote: Nareed

Reincarnation would be a neat thing to have. In some ways better than a "perfect" after life.

I forget the title of a novella dealing with reincarnation by the late H. Beam Piper (the man who can use the phrase "Society of Assassins" and make it seem reasonable). He treats the matter scientifically, offering experiments showing proof of it. Then all hell breaks loose in that world due to its political divisions.

Clarke does a kind of technological reincarnation, but that's really a recreation of someone. And that is a fascinating philosophical issue as well. briefly: if I make a "perfect copy of your mind and put it in a "perfect" replica of your body after you die, are you still alive? (of course you're not, and I can prove it).

Lots of people believe in reincarnation, but the people who believe in resurrection (or an afterlife) think they are wrong.

Another 'perfect replica' idea is light speed travel - make a perfect scan of an individual, transmit the information elsewhere at near the speed of light, assemble a perfect copy of the original, and... destroy the original.

Quote: Dalex64

Thou shalt not kill.

Where did that message come from? Who made that rule? The universe, God, or Man?

I thought I was pretty clear on this one - the bible says it came from God.

If instead it came from the universe, then you just gave God a demotion.

I didn't think it was the universe's job to care for and love man, I thought that also came from God.

I think I understand your problems with EvenBob's statements, that without God we have no moral compass.

Transferring that moral compass to the universe - and saying without that, we are lost - has me really confused. I don't think I have ever heard anyone say something like that.

I'm not sure if this is addressed to me as a misunderstanding. I too am pretty clear that the rule not to kill innocent people comes from God. The universe is God's creation but it is not a moral compass itself, that morality dwells in us as we are made in the image and likeness of God. That is another reason we are so special in all of creation we know right from wrong. If you doubt this see if you can imagine a world where it is moral and good to lie, cheat, and steal. We can't even imagine it because we didn't make up the rules as to what is good or evil and thank the Lord Almighty we didn't!

Quote: FrGamble

I'm not sure if this is addressed to me as a misunderstanding. I too am pretty clear that the rule not to kill innocent people comes from God. The universe is God's creation but it is not a moral compass itself, that morality dwells in us as we are made in the image and likeness of God. That is another reason we are so special in all of creation we know right from wrong. If you doubt this see if you can imagine a world where it is moral and good to lie, cheat, and steal. We can't even imagine it because we didn't make up the rules as to what is good or evil and thank the Lord Almighty we didn't!

Yes, it was addressed to you.

Nothing you just said is in conflict with the statement "the universe does not care"

Nothing you said requires the universe to care.

I have never heard from a Christian religion that the universe cares about you.

Everything you said there is in line with my expectations from you.

What confused me is your statement or response to Bob's statement that an uncaring or neutral universe would be the end of us, or wouldn't be worth living in. I'm portable again, as usual, so I'm sorry I can't easily go check your exact words.

One more thing you just said is morality dwells within us, and we are special because we know right from wrong.

The universe, and nothing else in the universe (probably or almost), except for us, knows right from wrong.

I'm saying the same thing several different ways - the universe does not care, doesn't know right from wrong, and doesn't have the capacity for any of thise things.

None of that is in conflict either with the idea that God made us a happy or favorable little corner of the universe to live in.

Quote: FrGamble

I too am pretty clear that the rule not to kill innocent people comes from God.

It comes from common sense. If you allow killing freely, what's to prevent you from being killed at any time for any reason? Likewise things like theft, fraud, deception, etc.

Every society in existence has explicit or implicit rules against killing other people, with mostly reasonable exceptions like self defense.

Two exceptions I take exception with is war and religious reasons. All human societies recognize war as legitimate killing. Ideally this should be so only in self defense, after one's country has been attacked (or if one's country is about to be attacked). The Roman Empire became no less bellicose once it adopted Christianity.

Then there's religion. many ancient peoples incorporated human sacrifices in their religious practices. In some it was considered a great honor to be killed at the altar of a deity (though most victims were very much unwilling).

Quote: FrGamble

If you doubt this see if you can imagine a world where it is moral and good to lie, cheat, and steal.

Imagine England and Scotland in the 6th or
8th century or so. In the countryside people
lived in clans, mostly made up of members
of the same family. Their morals were, anybody
outside the clan is fair game for anything, right
on up to cannibalism. If you got caught alone
by a rival clan, you were likely to become dinner.
These people didn't seem to be aware of the
inborn moral compass that you claim is in all
of us.

Gypsy clans in Europe were the same way, but they stole
babies and ripped off and conned, I don't know
if they were cannibals or not. The point is, the stories
are legion in history of people who made their own
rules and were perfectly fine with them for hundreds of
years.

We all eventually developed similar rules to live by in
society, it was inevitable and has zero to do with the
influence of a nonexistent moral universe.

Bob we are getting a little confused. I will grant of course that whether an atom shares an electron or not does not come down to morality. The universe isn't run by moral laws, but WE ARE! You almost, and I know you can't really be saying this, sound like you don't think their is anything wrong with the actions of the clans back in this time period. As if it was morally good for them to capture, kill, and eat the innocent? Please tell me that is not what you are saying. Is the only reason we think those things were wrong is because time has passed and we find ourselves in a different situation? If the Nazi's had won and conquered the world would we be hailing the extermination of Jews and so many others?