Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

This is my fave NT verse:

And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent; and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised: and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many (Matthew 27:50-53).

This is the NT, folks. A cobbled together bunch of
manuscripts, all written long long after Jesus died,
full of fanciful nonsense and wishful thinking. Read
it at your own risk.

I know it is your favorite verse from the amount of times you quoted it. Can I give you some context about this verse to try to help you understand what Matthew was saying here and break you free of your literal fundamentalist interpretation.

"The major Matthean addition, one more of the vivid popular type, expand poetically what happened as Jesus died. Not only was the veil of the sanctuary rent from top to bottom; but the earth was shaken, the rocks were rent, the tombs opened, and many bodies of the fallen-asleep holy ones raised, to come out and enter the holy city after Jesus' Resurrection. This is a scriptural way of describing the last times. If the birth of Jesus was marked by a sign in the heavens (a star's rising), his death is marked by sings on the earth (a quake) and under the earth (tombs). His death brings judgment on the Temple but also the Resurrection of the saints of Israel. Human relationships to God have been changed, and the cosmos has been transformed."
-An Introduction to the New Testament by Raymond Brown
I couldn't more highly recommend this book to you by the way!

Quote: FrGamble

2nd Peter is the latest book in the NT and written around 130 AD so there is no book in the Bible that comes close to the 3rd Century. .

That's the Church's story, you have to stick
with it. Forensic evidence is pointing to an
entirely different explanation. Forgeries,
heavy editing, most of the books being
written hundreds of years after Jesus
died. And the oldest copies of the NT,
dating to the century of Constantine,
are missing half of what's in the modern
NT. The ol priests just kept adding and
adding their own ideas until you get the
mess you have now.

Quote: FrGamble

expand poetically what happened as Jesus died.

You must be joking. We're supposed to
take all of the NT literally, i.e., Jesus really
walked on water, really raised the dead,
really turned water into wine, really healed
people, really REALLY rose from the
dead. But for the things that sound hard
for anybody in their right mind to believe,
we have to look at that as the 'poetic'
way of saying it. Let's look at the whole
NT that way, then. It's just a nice story, none
of it really happened. Obviously.

Quote: Evenbob

That's the Church's story, you have to stick
with it. Forensic evidence is pointing to an
entirely different explanation. Forgeries,
heavy editing, most of the books being
written hundreds of years after Jesus
died. And the oldest copies of the NT,
dating to the century of Constantine,
are missing half of what's in the modern
NT. The ol priests just kept adding and
adding their own ideas until you get the
mess you have now.

Bob you really should do some research on this. It is established fact that there exist these ancient manuscripts. You can go look them if you want as often they are on display in certain locations. Just about every verse is accounted for in the NT. Do you think that nobody has done this research or asked these questions before? Forensic evidence and great scholarship has led to large consensus on the dating of these books. I really wish you well on the joy and adventure of learning more about the formation and interpretation of the NT. Seriously, get that book from Raymond Brown I can guarantee you it will be the best book you have read on the NT.

Quote: Evenbob

You must be joking. We're supposed to
take all of the NT literally, i.e., Jesus really
walked on water, really raised the dead,
really turned water into wine, really healed
people, really REALLY rose from the
dead. But for the things that sound hard
for anybody in their right mind to believe,
we have to look at that as the 'poetic'
way of saying it. Let's look at the whole
NT that way, then. It's just a nice story, none
of it really happened. Obviously.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Biblical hermeneutics and interpretation. There are some parts of the NT to be taken literally and there are other parts that are poetic. It can be pretty easy to tell which passages are which through forensic study of the words used, idioms or the time, relationship to other parts of the Gospel, other Gospels, other Biblical writing, contexts, etc. The Resurrection itself is hard for people to believe, as is the walking on water, or the Eucharistic yet these are things that REALLY REALLY happened and are true. Just looking at the NT as one poetic story or just looking at it as strict literal history is a lazy way to read a beautiful moving testimony of a man who has changed the world and the lives of those who are writing about Him. It is better to read it as it is intended and you will get so much more out of it.

Quote: FrGamble

Bob you really should do some research on this.

Gee, thanks for the tip but I do research
almost every day. Most Bible scholars
readily agree that 4 of Paul's letters
are obvious forgeries. Now it's up to
7. And almost half the NT has been
determined to be forgeries written
hundreds of years after the fact. This
throws a very bad light on the entire
thing, none of it should be taken
seriously.

I totally understand why you must take/
toe the company line on this, they sign
your paycheck every week. You're like the
reality TV show producer who swears his
show is 100% legit, when he knows most
of it is made up. I get it. You've made your
bed and now you're forced to lie in it.

Luckily, I'm in no such position. I can see
everything with an open mind. From my
standpoint, the more I read about the NT,
the more it stinks to high heaven (excuse
the pun) of trickery and deceit. You've
hitched your wagon to a star made out of
cream cheese, it seems..

Quote: FrGamble

So a written document of eye witness testimony is not evidence?

If it were, I'd believe in Scientology.

Quote:

I really don't know how you can say this or why?

You're asking what you really don't know?

Quote:

I do think you mean is there any documents backing up the claims of the NT outside of the NT.

There are plenty of writings outside the Iliad attesting to various gods mentioned there. Ergo they must be real.

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Well we do have the writings of Josephus

Josephus wrote about Jesus well after the gospels, in all their contradictory gory, were written. He was born in the late 30s CE, too. Meaning he lacked any first hand knowledge anyway.

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and the decrees from various government powers about the reality of the person of Jesus Christ and the immediate trouble caused by His Resurrection.

Really? You have Roman documents about the alleged resurrection? Quick! Run to Sotheby's. You're sitting on a fortune so vast, even Jehovah will hit you for a loan.

Quote: FrGamble

It is better to read it as it is intended and you will get so much more out of it.

Picture me rubbing my hands together, I
have been waiting patiently for you to say
this. It's the tack all religious leaders are
now taking. With the deluge of credible
books in the last 15 years, tearing the NT
apart, they have to do something to answer
all the questions they're getting from nervous
church members.

So instead of, the NT is literal, every word is to
be taken to be the way it actually happened,
now it's "well, much of it is to be interpreted
in a poetic way, not a literal way. And don't look
at who wrote a book, or when it was written, instead
read it as it was intended to be read".

In other words, we have no idea if any of it is true,
when it was written, who wrote it, how many dozens
of times it was edited, so just read it with the intention
in mind.

This is how desperate Christianity has gotten.

Quote: FrGamble

The word "inspired" as I am using it.

I know exactly how you're using it. To
an atheist, 'inspired by god' has no
meaning. What I immediately think
is, what are you trying to get away
with. There is no god to inspire you
to do anything, so it's obviously you
inspiring yourself. Why are you trying
to blame it on god.

Quote: Nareed

If it were, I'd believe in Scientology.

Are you conflating evidence with some type of proof that forces you to believe in some way?

Quote:

There are plenty of writings outside the Iliad attesting to various gods mentioned there. Ergo they must be real.

I don't think there are as many as you might think but be careful you don't fall into the trap of thinking sheer numbers of things mean it must be true, I know what that trap looks like. One needs to make sure the quality, genre, age, etc. make them able to truly attest to the original work.

Quote:

Josephus wrote about Jesus well after the gospels, in all their contradictory gory, were written. He was born in the late 30s CE, too. Meaning he lacked any first hand knowledge anyway.

Um...Isn't this the case of every historian? Should we not count anyone who does not have first hand knowledge?

Quote:

Really? You have Roman documents about the alleged resurrection? Quick! Run to Sotheby's. You're sitting on a fortune so vast, even Jehovah will hit you for a loan.

I'm thinking about Claudius' expulsion of the Jews from Rome btw. 41-54 AD because of their arguments about the Christ. What were they arguing about, whether He was Rise, whether He was the Son of God or not one can imagine. Just 7 years after Jesus' Resurrection the arguments are so vehement as requiring an Emperor to make a bold move.