Original Sin?

Quote: Dalex64

Take the Sherlock Holmes novels.

They have real historical settings, with real historical people.

We do not then say everything else in the stories are true.

Are you saying London's not real? :)

Actually tons of legends include real, verifiable, historical people and/or settings. Gilgamesh is listed in actual documents other than the epic which bears his name. The Iliad is set in a real city, and makes references to many more. There are lots of historical documents claiming this or that god's favor, too.

It's just that none of these are as popular as the Christian bible for some reason.

Here's a thought: let's print tons of illustrated copies of the Iliad and distribute them free at schools, plus let's put them in hotel rooms for free as well. That ought to convert a few gentiles back to paganism :)

Quote: FrGamble

I think you need to hold your horses a little bit here. There is evidence that small parts of the Bible are not attested to in some of the earliest manuscripts. I don't think this logically equates to your claim that they should be deleted based solely on this evidence. It should definitely be noted, but cutting these out is not the best move for lots of reasons.

What forensic investigation does, among other
things, is take a passage from the NT that Jesus
supposedly said, and compare it to how people
talked and thought in the same period. They
use everything they can to set up a realistic
scenario for what life was like in the time of Jesus.

By using written material from outside the NT.
they can establish how what was said in the NT
fits in. It's not unlike how the FBI investigates
and profiles. A NT investigator can show that
certain books were written hundreds of years after
the fact using forensic techniques. Why should these
forgeries be left in the Bible.

Quote: Dalex64

We know there are made up stories in the bible. You are trying to tell us that you know which ones are made up, and which ones are real. Some stories that were once believed to be real have now been shown to be not true. Some of those stories we were told were real. Some people even still believe some of them.

The name Bible literally means "Books" in the plural. You are right there are some stories like Job or Tobit that are written as fictional books. In the same way we can tell Sherlock Holmes was written as fiction is as clear as these books are of that genre. We also have historical books, prophetic works, Gospels, letters, etc. You are not correct in thinking that the early Church didn't know which was which and for a time took for example the book of Job as factual history or used Genesis as a scientific textbook. A quick look at the Church Fathers and the allegorical interpretation of Scripture will show you that. We do know which ones were made up and which ones are real and that hasn't changed. We have discovered that some of the dates were wrong or out of order on some of the history or that there is another seed beside the mustard seed that is smallest, but you seem to think that at one point we thought all the books were the exact same genre and were all historical. If some people believed that they were always mistaken as are you on this point.

All you have to do is read the bible and see the inconsistencies and other justifications to develop reasonable doubt.

Quote:

Was Mary Magdalene present when the stone was rolled away?

Matthew 28:2,5,8 - “...Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it…The angel said to the woman, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified…So the women hurried away from the tomb…”

John 20:1,11-12 - “Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance…but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb and saw that two angels in white seated where Jesus’ body had been…”

That and more from http://www.christianitydisproved.com/bible.html

That was one of the true stories, right? Which version got picked as the true story?

That first quote cuts out right before it says that the women left and never told anyone what they saw because they were too afraid. If they never told anyone, how did the event get recorded?

Quote: Dalex64

That was one of the true stories, right? Which version got picked as the true story?

They're all true. even the parts that contradict the other parts. After all, it's all cannon.

If you can't reconcile them, then either 1) you're not doublethinking hard enough or 2) why would you need to reconcile them anyway?

This subject just continues to blow my mind. In
the Sinai Bible, the oldest copy of the NT that
we have, written at the time just after Constantine,
Jesus is never mentioned rising from the grave.

"The Sinai Bible’s version of the Gospel of Mark ends its story with Mary Magdalene arriving at the tomb and finding it empty. Yet, in modern-day versions of the Gospel of Mark, resurrection narratives now appear (16: 9-20), and the Vatican universally acknowledges that they are forgeries;

‘The conclusion of Mark is admittedly not genuine … almost the entire section is a later compilation’.

(‘Catholic Encyclopedia’, Vol., iii, p. 274, published under the Imprimatur of Archbishop Farley; also, ‘Encyclopedia Biblica’, ii, 1880; 1767, n. 3; 1781, and n. 1, on ‘The Evidence of its Spuriousness’)

The old Catholic Encyclopedia even admits it.
The resurrection story, along with most of
what Jesus said and did, was added later to
give the Gospels more power. Most of it is
a forgery, made up by priests as time went
on. Yet mainstream Christianity just ignores
the facts and pretends these things really
happened. This stuff is all over the place,
just Google the Sinai Bible and read for
20 minutes.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_40.htm

I really do love it how no one is more of a fundamentalist when it comes to the Bible than atheists. Mark ending with an empty tomb means there is no Resurrection. Two Gospels written by different people to a different audience have slightly different details and the whole thing never happened. Please remember that the Bible was not written as a scientific textbook nor was it written as a strict biography of the Son of God Jesus Christ. I would suggest you to take a big deep breath and relax. You write as if you were the first to discover these truths about the Scriptures. The early Church fathers discussed and prayed over it at length. There have been beautiful and meaningful allegorical and spiritual interpretations of these various passages made that have been fruitful in the spiritual life of the Church and believers. As the more scientific historical critical method for interpreting Scripture came to the forefront these discussions commenced again looking at the forensic evidence, the type of manuscripts, their authenticity and age, and the context and culture of which they are found. It is interesting and challenging for some, but none of it means that something which is so glaringly obvious such as the historical Resurrection of the person of Jesus Christ never happened.

He was Jewish, maybe his family spirited away with his corpse and buried him right away. As is their custom.

Quote: FrGamble

I really do love it how no one is more of a fundamentalist when it comes to the Bible than atheists. .

What I love is that there is, and has been,
a growing mountain of evidence that
points to the NT being mostly forged
over a long period of time, and nobody
talks about it.

You don't hear about it in the press or
on TV series shows because 90% of the
audience is Christian and you would lose
them. To learn about this, you have to do
the research yourself and find the behind
the scenes activity on your own.

The modern day NT has thousands of additions
that aren't in the earliest Bibles and the Church
has known it forever. It's even mentioned over
and over in the 1900 Catholic Encyclopedia
that was presided over by the bishop of NYC.

Add a little here and add a little there, and soon
you have Jesus walking on water and doing
magic tricks. Amazing what you can get away
with when the public is 99% illiterate and you
have their superstitious minds in the palm of
your hand.

Quote: Evenbob

Amazing what you can get away
with when the public is 99% illiterate and you
have their superstitious minds in the palm of
yours hand.

They may have not been able to read, but they understood pain. Back in the day you had to belong with a tribe/army or you perished.

Peasants had to side with somebody and repeat the story that kept them alive, maybe fed, maybe safe if the gang was big enough. It was a matter of survival to repeat what the priest said, to fit in, to stay alive. Repeat a similar mantra for a few generations of illiteracy and it becomes a belief.

They repeated the fables to not be killed.