Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

You want to be told that your position is legitimate. Well rest assured I do think there are legitimate reasons to be an atheist. Here are some of those reasons:

You know, I could make a list just as long and derogatory and condescending as yours, as to why people believe in various religions.

Quote: aceofspades

Ray Lewis padre..........Ray Lewis?

Ray Rice was already taken :-(

I am curious about which reason or reasons I mentioned you found particularly offensive?

Quote: FrGamble

joke time: Once there was this kid who was struggling with math so his parents sent him to Catholic school. All the sudden his math scores went way up and he was studying hard every night. His parents were happy and they asked the little boy what changed. He told them on the first day he saw what happened if you didn't do well at math, they nail you to a plus sign.

I lol'd XD

I feel like a timid double dutch player, trying to jump in, but unable to commit to that perfect moment to do so. I suppose I'll just go for it... if only I knew where to begin...

I guess first I'll address FrG's offense at our thoughts about the cross. I must say (obviously) that my thoughts are similar to EB's. I don't share your views, FrG, so it's impossible for me to empathize emotionally. I can understand intellectually (it's a reminder of His sacrifice, etc), but I feel nothing. When I think about the cross, my first thought is obviously "Judeo-Christian religion", but when I break that down to its base, I see, simply, a torture device.

That causes a rift mentally. Since I can think, I "get" the significance. But, also since I can think, I find it a bit strange. I mean, Jesus, as you say, was a very important man. And while I certainly question some of the more skeptical reports ( the magic stuff), there was a lot He did that is both completely plausible and completely great. So why is your symbol that device? Is it because it's looked at as THE most important aspect of His existence? I dunno. But for a man imbued with the gift of Laying on of Hands, it seems an odd way of remembering Him.

All of this reminds me of me, Nareed, and hockey. To me it is the end-all, and I could wax poetically for hours about the honor, the emotion, the worth, and the deep meaning I find within it. And Nareed will listen, and contemplate, but because she doesn't "feel" it, she'll likely say or ask "so... it's basically a bunch of neanderthals with knives on their feet and clubs in their hands, and for 60 minutes they try to kill each other". And I'll say "no, no, no, you just don't get it", and I'll go on to reiterate everything I've already said. But no matter how many times I say it, Nareed will only be able to understand that it's a bunch of neanderthals with knives on their feet and clubs in their hands trying to kill each other for 60 minutes at a clip. The thing is... if I were honest with myself, and broke it down to its base... I'm just a neanderthal with knives on my feet and a club in my hand trying to kill other people for 60 minutes at a clip.

You do a good job trying to explain, just as Team Atheist is doing a good job trying to explain ( loved the Sagan quote, I may have more on that later). But, while I'm not trying to prevent discussion (I'm rather enjoying all this), I just want to remind that there are some things that are just beyond the ability to understand. Because the understanding we're all trying to impose is one of emotion. That's impossible, so all we're left with is intellect which cares not about your feelings. Hopefully we can all understand this, and use the knowledge of it to prevent unintended offense.

Quote: Face

And Nareed will listen, and contemplate, but because she doesn't "feel" it, she'll likely say or ask "so... it's basically a bunch of neanderthals with knives on their feet and clubs in their hands, and for 60 minutes they try to kill each other".

I have pronounced my verdict on hockey: it's a successful attempt to replicate soccer on ice.

At first it seems like a failed attempt, because there is a clear objective. But upon further examination the stated objective proves illusory. said objective is to place "the puck" in the opponents goal. This seems simple enough, but as yet not a single "the puck" has ever been seen at play anywhere. There are many reproductions of this "the puck" thing, but that's like making a stuffed toy of the Loch Ness monster or "the Yeti." It proves nothing.

So hockey is a game where a bunch of people chase around the ice with sticks in search of a mythical something that is not there. I suppose mass hallucinations provide the scoring.

See? Nothing about Neanderthals or a gross misunderstanding of ice skates.
;)

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And I'll say "no, no, no, you just don't get it",

If I say I get it but you don't, you'll think I'm crazy. So I won't say it.

BTW, no one has ever tried to force hockey on me, nor has anyone ever tried to get me to immolate my life on the altar of the hallowed hockey. As far as I know, no one has ever been denied civil rights because of hockey.

And that's what makes it not religion.

Quote: Face

All of this reminds me of me, Nareed, and hockey. To me it is the end-all, and I could wax poetically for hours about the honor, the emotion, the worth, and the deep meaning I find within it. And Nareed will listen, and contemplate, but because she doesn't "feel" it, she'll likely say or ask "so... it's basically a bunch of neanderthals with knives on their feet and clubs in their hands, and for 60 minutes they try to kill each other". And I'll say "no, no, no, you just don't get it", and I'll go on to reiterate everything I've already said. But no matter how many times I say it, Nareed will only be able to understand that it's a bunch of neanderthals with knives on their feet and clubs in their hands trying to kill each other for 60 minutes at a clip. The thing is... if I were honest with myself, and broke it down to its base... I'm just a neanderthal with knives on my feet and a club in my hand trying to kill other people for 60 minutes at a clip.

Great analogy. Really enjoyed it. You are so right, sometimes you just cant explain some things
This story reminds me of being a Deadhead.
I had a close friend of mine that hung out at red neck bars.
I turned him onto the Grateful Dead. He started going to concerts with me totally into the music.
I started giving him copies of shows on cassette tapes. He loved the tapes I gave him. So much so, he told me he was going back to his favorite red neck bar to put the Dead on their speaker system. I told him dont do it, guys in the bar wont get it. He said no way, this is great music, I got to turn my bar friends on to this.
I told him go ahead but its not going to end well.
Well he gets to the bar, hands a cassette tape to the bartender to put on the bar sound system.
Well the Grateful Dead is playing and people at the Bar dont get it and start complaining.
Somebody yells out loud to turn that crap off and put on some Lynrd Skynrd instead. Everybody in the bar agrees.
Bartender shuts off the tape and gives it back to my friend. My friend walks out the door yelling at everybody in the bar that they dont know what good music is.

Quote: Nareed

See?

Exactly =)

I know that when I'm on the ice, I'm in a different world. I can describe the flow, the energy, the unseen forces that drive me one way or the other. I can see how nothing more than a slight turn of a skate, from one guy out of ten, created a path of events that led to a scoring chance. How a split second decision turned the tide of battle, how the self-sacrifice of one man or many men changed the course of history. You want a spiritual experience? You want some next-level goosebumps? Check out the story of Herb Brooks and the '80 Olympic team. I cry every time. I have goosebumps now just typing about it.

But to Nareed, it'll always be a seemingly pointless fray of chasing the unseen. And even if she were completely committed and wanted to know that experience, I'm largely powerless to make that happen.

That's not a fault of hers, nor is it one of mine. We're just different. And differences are what makes life fun.

In case I haven't already, I just want to thank everyone who's been participating. Not as a mod, but just as a fellow. It is very rare to speak differing opinions on religion, on the internet, and not have it go south instantly. And the personalities involved here are not known for suffering fools. Yet here we are, going on months of debate, and there's been no major spat or hellstorm to speak of.

I think that deserves recognition, so "bravo!" to us all =)

Quote: FrGamble

We don't like to be shown we are wrong or challenged in our beliefs,

You never showed me I was was wrong, you
must be joking. If I get mad it's because
religious people act and speak like they're
some kind of moral authority, just because
they choose to believe in god. It's talking down,
the condescension that I don't like. I don't
mean you, but I look at an awful lot of religious
people as one step away from a mental ward.
I treat them with kid gloves and would never
talk to them like I do you, who knows what they
would do.

Quote:

Well rest assured I do think there are legitimate reasons to be an atheist. .

There are far more reasons for not believing in
something you can't prove exists than not. It's
just that people are gullible, they don't think
for themselves generally. They take the path of
least resistance, which is organized religion. All
the answers and everything they need is
right there in a package with a bow on top. Just
leave your brain and the door and come right in.
(be sure to bring your wallet)

Quote: Face

But to Nareed, it'll always be a seemingly pointless fray of chasing the unseen.

I'll let this one slide ;)

Quote:

And even if she were completely committed and wanted to know that experience, I'm largely powerless to make that happen.

You mean if I were interested I'd have to be.... Oh, not that one either.

But there's such a thing as empathy. There was this guy in high school who took absolutely nothing seriously, was prone to make vulgar and tasteless remarks he thought were funny, and overall was a big pain to have around. Then one day we went to the local ice rink to watch him play in, of all things, a hockey match (ok, I did see "the puck").

After the game, he talked for an hour straight about all he'd done and all that had happened. I could not repeat a word he said. I wasn't interested then, to be brutally frank. But just this one time in the three years I knew him, he Was passionate about something, he took something seriously and he was happy and thoughtful and considerate the whole time.

Face always writes in a way that makes me want to agree with him. It's like someone with a British accent, they always seem smarter and more sophisticated no matter what they are talking about. I picture Face on these religious threads smoking a pipe and speaking like he's from Downton Abbey. Of course on the racing threads I picture him with a southern drawl spitting tobacco. He is all things to all people and I do enjoy when he weighs in.

I do agree that there are some things that cannot be expressed in person and certainly not on an internet forum, such as emotion. I also think that a lot of what we believe or hold, concerning God especially, is wrapped up in emotion, whether we admit it or not. The discussion of the cross was one of those issues for me. Breaking it down to its very last compound I can see that it seems irrational to love and see in that ultimate act of Jesus Christ the greatest moment ever in history - so much so that the a symbol of death and torture is transformed into a sign of life and love. This might be one of things that we could legitimately say, "It's a Christian thing, you wouldn't understand." Lord knows there is so much about the emotions that surround atheism I don't understand. How someone who doesn't believe deals with suffering, pain, death, how they find purpose and meaning to do what is right? I have no idea and it doesn't make sense to me. However it is very clear that it makes sense and feels fine to many of the people on this forum who I respect very much. They could try to explain it to me, and some of them have, and I still look it like Nareed looks at hockey.

That being said we do have to be careful not to relegate our decisions about either denying God or believing in Him to simple emotions. The key to keeping these discussions going so long is by focusing on the reason behind our decisions, not our feelings. This sometimes means our beliefs or lack thereof will be challenged and we have to be okay with that. If something is pointed out to be circular logic or that our reasoning doesn't follow it is not a personal attack but an opportunity to deepen our knowledge and learn something new. I know my faith in God has been deepened through our discussions on this forum and I have learned a lot more about atheism and the thinking behind it. Thanks everybody very much!