Original Sin?

Quote: Evenbob

You listen to confessions,
I bet you spend most of your time shaking
your head.

Having just finished my third day in a row hearing confessions for different Advent penance services I felt like I should comment on this post.

Nothing convinces me more of the goodness of people than being able to hear their confessions. I know that sounds surprising, but I really wish you could experience it Evenbob. It would clear up so many problems for you. First of all you would realize that you never feel more love for someone than when they are willing to share their faults with you. I tell you sometimes it is all I can do not to get up and give them a big hug. We all know this feeling if we are privileged to have a good friend or spouse with whom we can share our failures. We can share our successes with anyone, but if you have someone you can pour your heart out to and know that you will only receive love in return - that is golden!

Secondly, you would see the power of forgiveness as people who are debilitated by their past and present mistakes, many of whom feel unloved or unlovable, are set free and reminded of their goodness. They come in often in a downward spiral of I did this, I feel awful so I did this, more awful, more of this, help me! They leave on cloud nine with a positive image of who they are as a child of God, which leads them to do this, which makes them feel great, so they do more good things!

Thirdly, you would finally see the reality of sin. You like to say all the time that people do what they want to do. Sit in a confessional and you will experience the fact that people do the things they know they shouldn't do and don't do the things they know they should. There is a moral authority and everyone feels it. Even you will admit, if you are honest, that you can't even live up to whatever moral demands you place on yourself. I know you don't always do what you know you should do and that sometimes you don't do what you know you should. This is sin.

Lastly, you would be able to see how very real the love of Jesus Christ is and how true his victory over sin and death is. I tell you I never feel more like a priest of Jesus Christ than in the confessional.

Quote: FrGamble

It would clear up so many problems for you. .

I have no problems regarding god or religion,
none. Going to confession is a cheap way to
a free therapy session. That's what a therapist
does, sits there and listens while you unload
all your crap on him. Some people really
need this, I never have. Confession is another
way to keep people coming back. They get
hooked on it, just like they get hooked on
therapy. I read that Catholics love confession.
they always feel better afterwards. So do people
who go to therapy.

Padre, is this how you dress?

Quote: FrGamble

I agree Nareed in the sense that God was at work long before Christ was born. Even in religions outside of Judaism one can see the sparks of divine truth all around in ancient religions and philosophers. In my mind it is all preparation for the revelation of Jesus Christ, but even He stands on a strong and proud history of faithful reflections on ethical and moral principles. It's often a sign of antisemitism to fail to acknowledge that Jesus was often rephrasing or repeating teachings from the Hebrew Scriptures.

I have a legitimate question for you Padre since I don't believe I have ever heard this question or an answer before. Your post I quoted made me wonder. Given there was significant civilizations before Christ. We are told by the bible that humans fell from grace from the get go (Adam and Eve and all that). Why did God let humans live in sin with no hope of redemptions for 10's of thousands of years before deciding to send Jesus to save everyone? Did God finally have some compassion of his own and finally decide to save us. Or was it more like how we might treat a misbehaving child that we have given a time out, ok you can come out of your room now if you promise to be good?

Quote: Evenbob

Padre, is this how you dress?

I hardly ever wear the cassock (the long black Matrix looking robe), in fact I don't even know where mine is. They are the most comfortable clerical wear though and you can even wear shorts underneath which is a plus. Unfortunately, now a days wearing the cassock kind of pegs you as a big time conservative so I just wear my clerical shirt mostly. I do wear it all the time though for the public witness.

Quote: kenarman

I have a legitimate question for you Padre since I don't believe I have ever heard this question or an answer before. Your post I quoted made me wonder. Given there was significant civilizations before Christ. We are told by the bible that humans fell from grace from the get go (Adam and Eve and all that). Why did God let humans live in sin with no hope of redemptions for 10's of thousands of years before deciding to send Jesus to save everyone? Did God finally have some compassion of his own and finally decide to save us. Or was it more like how we might treat a misbehaving child that we have given a time out, ok you can come out of your room now if you promise to be good?

This is indeed a legitimate question and thanks for asking it. The answer is found all the way back in Genesis in a verse often called the proto-Gospel.

Quote: Genesis 3:15

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

God is speaking to the ancient serpent the Devil and this happens immediately after the fall. The "He" refers to the offspring of the new Eve, Mary, none other than Jesus. Jesus' blow to the evil one will be to the head, meaning it is a fatal blow. Jesus will definitively defeat the Devil while the blow the Devil gives to Jesus will be a painful one, but non-fatal (the heel). This prediction of God's plan of a Messiah was in the works the instant we fell. God always and forever has compassion on all people from the beginning and He desired us to return to the promised land of the perfect garden, a symbol of paradise - Heaven. Those that died before the coming of Christ during the period of broken covenants and forgiveness we call the Old Testament do not go to Hell but are rather offered salvation through Christ when He descended to the dead after the Crucifixion. There is some beautiful iconography about this moment of Jesus knocking down the doors of death, Shoel, and leading Adam, Eve, and the faithful of the OT towards the true promised land they longed to return to.

Quote: FrGamble

I just wear my clerical shirt mostly. I do wear it all the time though for the public witness.

Like this? I could order one thru a supply
house and pretend to be a priest. As long
as you don't accept money, it's not illegal.
God won't know the difference, as he doesn't
exist.

Quote: FrGamble

This prediction of God's plan of a Messiah was in the works the instant we fell. .

Just more reverse engineering performed
long after Jesus died. They took the Genesis
story and made the Jesus story fit it like
a glove. It's what fiction writers still do, take
an old myth, or a real story, and fashion
their fiction around it to give it credibility.

Like Ridley Scott did in the new Exodus
movie. Entertaining, but pure exploited
myth.

I'm afraid you have to do more than just cry "reverse engineering" every time a point is made. Maybe you could explain how something written so long before Christ fits like a glove or any of the other many predictions of a Messiah in the Old Testament also fit like a glove. If it fits you must cease and desist your craziness.

Quote: FrGamble

God is speaking to the ancient serpent the Devil and this happens immediately after the fall.

Even if I were to accept this, and I really can't judge whether it be so or not, the date when Genesis was written remains rather uncertain. Certainly Judaism has a long history, but it simply isn't that long compared to all of human history, human pre-history and proto-human existence. If we include our most immediate, tool-making ancestors, humanity could go back maybe 100,000 years.

Genesis and the Old Testament probably don't go back much farther then 4000-5000 years. Assuming parts of the story of Joseph and his brothers are true, and the details on Egypt are quite accurate, we can date Joseph to a period in Egypt's Old Kingdom. At best that's 4,500 to 5,000 years. If the story was entirely made up, say as a means of tying the people of Israel to a powerful, major civilization, then that story could be later. How much later would be a matter for debate, but let's say it could be only 3,000 years old.

So where was God during 95% to 97% of human existence?