Original Sin?

Nope God is pretty consistent that way throughout the OT and we are pretty consistent as well. However, you have a point when we get to the NT. The love God shows through Jesus is beyond words - mind blown.

Quote: FrGamble

Nope God is pretty consistent that way throughout the OT and we are pretty consistent as well..

Only if you read it for purpose of cherry
picking what you want it to say. Whole
thick books have been written on the
inconsistencies in the OT, as well as the
contradictions. The NT was cherry picked
before it was released, and even it has
it's flaws.

Actually you just recently had an entire post full of cherry picked quotes you got from somewhere to say what you wanted it to say. You have given the perfect example of what you yourself are saying not to do! What I'm suggesting is if you read the OT in context and in its entirety you cannot come out with a picture other than a God who is just, loving, forgiving, and merciful.

Quote: FrGamble

Actually you just recently had an entire post full of cherry picked quotes you got from somewhere to say what you wanted it to say.

LOL Of course, the OT is only good for that..

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you cannot come out with a picture other than a God who is just, loving, forgiving, and merciful.

You are correct, but not necessarily in that order.
It's Xmas Eve, Merry X padre..

Quote: FrGamble

Thank you very much Nareed.

You're welcome.

First, would there be any alternatives or options I did not mention? Or perhaps something you deem more vital?

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Of the three options you gave I would take number 3 - that the person receive forgiveness from God and therefore be able to forgive himself. This is not to the exclusion of the other two necessary aspects of true conversion. However, if someone doesn't feel that they are forgiven and loved and a good person they simply will be unable to stop the sin and any atonement will be an empty action.

This seems so good, I'm tempted to agree.

Fortunately I've grown an active mind that questions everything.

What you describe is acceptance and support. That is important and necessary. But it cannot come from God. Even if we were to assume there is a God, he was not party to the "sin." He also cannot, or will not, come down and say anything or do anything.

Not to mention I hate, and I mean HATE, the notion of asking God, or anyone else, for forgiveness on a bad deed involving another person.

Suppose one fine day I step on your toes, quite accidentally. Then I say "Sorry about that," to the person standing next to you. Suppose she replies "Oh, that's alright."

If I were to do that inadvertently, it makes me detached and uninterested. If I were to do it on purpose, it would make me an awful person.

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Unfortunately even very menial sins that don't seem to hurt anyone or the sinner themselves actually do hurt them, especially if they are allowed to build up and form habits. It is best not to ever ignore sin, but also we shouldn't make a huge deal over these small sins.

I'm not taking about small sins.

Consider a gay or lesbian couple who have a long, loving relationship and who even raise one or more children in the course of it. They both derive joy in their marriage and their family, and their family is average for the place they live in.

What is the penance owed on that?

Quote: Nareed

Not to mention I hate, and I mean HATE, the notion of asking God, or anyone else, for forgiveness on a bad deed involving another person.

I understand. At the same time I hate having people feeling trapped or wallow in their sins. It eats away at them and usually causes a downward spiral to form in their lives, people need to be forgiven and freed from their sins. There are many instances I'm sure we can both name when directly asking the person directly effected by our mistake is impossible or impractical. Rather than have that person hopelessly trapped in their sins they can ask God, a community representative, a loved one or in the case of the Sacrament of Reconciliation all three rolled into one to restore themselves and move on.

I agree with you that the best resolutions come when you can directly ask the other person for forgiveness and heal the relationship. I also will say that people can sometimes abuse the Sacrament as a way to avoid talking directly to the person and owning up for their sins and we must be on the watch for this. However, I maintain that nothing good can truly happen until the person who has sinned regains a sense of their self-worth, dignity, and the fact they reject their sins as not who they truly are.

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Consider a gay or lesbian couple who have a long, loving relationship and who even raise one or more children in the course of it. They both derive joy in their marriage and their family, and their family is average for the place they live in.

What is the penance owed on that?

Usually a penance needs a sin.

Have you seen this, padre? You think animals
don't have souls as valuable as ours? Here's
a video of a monkey saving his friend after
an electrocution. We're all connected, we are
'god' and 'he' is us. The connection is direct,
there is no separation. How could there be.

It is a very nice video. However, maybe it is a radical thought but I still don't think a monkey's life is as valuable as a human's life. Your understanding of the universe might not care but if you had revive either a monkey or a human who would you help? I think universally we would all choose the human and for good reason.

We are all connected that is true, but you take it too far by saying that everything in the universe is equally important, which is to say nothing is that important. You have never mentioned a grain of sand, but I brought it up to test your theory. If we are all connected and everything has the same value than why stop at monkeys or cockroaches, is a grain of sand equal to a human soul, why or why not?

Quote: FrGamble

I agree with you that the best resolutions come when you can directly ask the other person for forgiveness and heal the relationship. I also will say that people can sometimes abuse the Sacrament as a way to avoid talking directly to the person and owning up for their sins and we must be on the watch for this.

I can see how sometimes it won't be possible to even talk to the affected party, and that talking about it with someone could help. Yet still no one but the affected party has any right to forgive.

Suppose A murders B. There's no possible way A can ever talk to B ever again, therefore also no possible way fro A to seek forgiveness. Suppose then A confesses to a priest, he's genuinely remorseful, genuinely sorry, let's even say A even turns himself in to the authorities and gets life in prison, and the priest absolves him of this sin.

That last is a travesty in my view.

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However, I maintain that nothing good can truly happen until the person who has sinned regains a sense of their self-worth, dignity, and the fact they reject their sins as not who they truly are.

In the case of a murderer, he should have nothing because he deserves nothing. If he suffers, that is nothing compared to what his victim got. you need to be alive in order to suffer, after all.

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Usually a penance needs a sin.

That's not what the church seems to be saying. Sex is only for reproduction, isn't it? Sex should only take place within the context of a marriage, right? Gays and lesbians are told they must remain celibate. Most Catholic organizations oppose adoption and some even conception by gays or lesbians. The church not only doesn't recognize same-sex marriages, but also opposes them in a civil context.

So say a gay couple get married, enjoy sex frequently, adopt children and raise them reasonably well. I fail to see anything even remotely close to wrong in any moral sense, but that is not the view of the church.

Now, if you tell me you disagree with the official doctrine in this matter, I'll accept that. But the way I see things, the couple I described above is deemed guilty of several sins by the church.

Quote: Nareed

In the case of a murderer, he should have nothing because he deserves nothing. If he suffers, that is nothing compared to what his victim got. you need to be alive in order to suffer, after all.

I will never again take seriously any of your criticism of God as revealed in the Old Testament.

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So say a gay couple get married, enjoy sex frequently, adopt children and raise them reasonably well. I fail to see anything even remotely close to wrong in any moral sense, but that is not the view of the church.

But the way I see things, the couple I described above is deemed guilty of several sins by the church.

In this case the Church would see it the same way as a sexually active heterosexual couple who are not married. It is not a sin to love another person or to be committed to them, no matter the gender - in fact it is holy. In this I agree with the official doctrine of the Church. If there was an official doctrine of the secular world it would be that love = sex. This is what I strongly disagree with.