Gun Control

Quote: reno

Because you need to keep track of your loaded weapons. You can't lose them

No one "loses" them. It's just forgetting that they're not allowed in some places. It's no difference than carrying your cell phone but then forgetting one day that cell phones aren't allowed in certain places.

I don't know why libbies have such a hard time understanding the simplest concept. 🙄🙄

Quote: Shrek

No one "loses" them.

No one loses guns?

According to the National Crime Information Center, a branch of the FBI, at least 249,501 firearms were reported lost or stolen in 2016, an increase of more than 62 percent over 2007. All told, at least 1.9 million guns were lost or stolen during that 10-year period.

Between 2008 and 2017, police officers lost 1,781 guns. The vast majority were department-issued handguns, but the count also included hundreds of rifles and shotguns, as well as four fully automatic submachine guns. The firearms were stolen out of glove boxes and closets, left in airports and on the roofs of cars, and in one case, forgotten in a high school bathroom. Some were later involved in crimes ranging from aggravated assault to homicide.

Quote: reno

No one loses guns?

According to the National Crime Information Center, a branch of the FBI, at least 249,501 firearms were reported lost or stolen in 2016, an increase of more than 62 percent over 2007. All told, at least 1.9 million guns were lost or stolen during that 10-year period.

Between 2008 and 2017, police officers lost 1,781 guns. The vast majority were department-issued handguns, but the count also included hundreds of rifles and shotguns, as well as four fully automatic submachine guns. The firearms were stolen out of glove boxes and closets, left in airports and on the roofs of cars, and in one case, forgotten in a high school bathroom. Some were later involved in crimes ranging from aggravated assault to homicide.

Nice try. Typical libbie tactic.

This is what I was referring to and you know it. Face said:

Quote: Face

why you worried? Can either you name me ONE incident due to widespread firearms and how they've been a danger to air travel?

Then you said:

Quote: reno

Quote: Face

why you worried? Can either you name me ONE incident due to widespread firearms and how they've been a danger to air travel?

Because you need to keep track of your loaded weapons. You can't lose them. If you're not sure where your loaded weapons are, how do you know if one is missing? How do you know a thief didn't steal them?

Then I said:

Quote: Shrek

Quote: reno

Because you need to keep track of your loaded weapons. You can't lose them. If you're not sure where your loaded weapons are, how do you know if one is missing? How do you know a thief didn't steal them?

No one "loses" them. It's just forgetting that they're not allowed in some places. It's no difference than carrying your cell phone but then forgetting one day that cell phones aren't allowed in certain places.

I was talking about guns & air travel. YOu already knew that though but had no decent argument, so you had to twist the argument around into something that it was not. The fact that you're implying that I was talking about losing guns in general is incredibly dishonest. You can join the BLM guy on my block list. 😂

Quote: reno

As you're getting ready for your trip, and you're packing your carry-on luggage, how could you not notice the loaded firearm?

I've done this once, so I can give you one anecdotal data point...

In the city, so I'm carrying. Night ends, clothes off, gun in overnight bag. Next morning wake up, get dressed, not wearing carrying clothes, not going anywhere, gun stays in bag. Go home, gun still in bag. Get home, it's just me and Pops, gun stays in bag. I'm a homebody so I go weeks and sometimes months without leaving home. Gun stays in bag. Company comes, says lets go to "x". Quick snatch of clothes, in the bag they go, and down the road I go not realizing I'm carrying.

I'll stop shy of defense. That was the first and only time I've unknowingly carried, because I'm with you on this (and nowadays always have children present). But knowing the way I pack (an hour before leaving), and having been in a living situation where loaded weapons are in every room and carried everywhere and there is no home bound need for safety such as the two adult bachelor gunners that I had with me and pops, I can see (and did see) how it happens. Concerning, perhaps, but not (IMO) to the level of wholly ignorant and laissez-faire recklessness you seem to imply.

Quote: Dalex64

Statistics are going to be non-existent, because firearms have been prohibited on airplanes, and most people who might be inclined to bring one don't try to sneak it past security.

Even in the September 11 hijackings, they did not use guns - they probably figured the risk of getting caught was too high.

It would be reasonable to say that there are so few incidents of gun violence or gun crimes on airlines because people generally believe that it is hard to get a gun on a plane, so they do not try, and if access to guns on planes is limited, so is the ability to commit a crime with one.

As for why I might be worried - the risk of accidental discharge is always present. It even happened to a pilot in 2008.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-airways-pilots-gun-fires-in-cockpit/
I suppose that counts as one incident of how firearms have been a danger to air travel.

An accidental discharge in an airplane carries a high risk of hurting someone, since everyone is packed in there like sardines, or even causing a crash.

Hmm. I don't understand the logic. The fact that it's illegal alone would lend itself to stat taking, as petro has provided. And, in case you haven't noticed by the everything around you (lol), laws don't mean things don't happen. I mean, this conversation was borne of stats showing thousands of guns are snuck on a plane every year. But you're arguing there will be no gun crime stats because... there can be no stats because... people know not to bring guns on planes?

If this is just my own reading comprehension, point me the right way.

And I do understand how a gun could be problematic on a plane, certainly. What I'm attempting to point out is that I know of almost zero worldwide historical instances where guns and planes mixed anywhere near frequently, no matter how innocent the incident. Hijackings? Sure. Pilots or Marshals accidentally discharging, absolutely. But what are the numbers? BTS says there's 1.7mm Americans flying every day. That's over 600mm per year. VERY roughly split that by 300 and that's 2mm flights (I know bad math doesn't account for private, helicopters, less than jumbo planes, et al, but bear with me). How man of these went wrong due to a gun, whether malicious or just ignorance?

It's the Patriot Act, 24hr fear cycle America. Anything that can be dramatized and sensationalized, it will be. Have you heard of one criminal act involving guns on planes? Robbery, assault, murder, terrorism? It would be headline news for a week if it happened. Where are they?

You see? This is why I rail. I'm with both of you in spirit. I do not tolerate "lost guns" nor do I want them on a plane, loaded, in people's physical possession. Not even my own, which, put it on the calendar, you'll probably never hear again. I don't even want the Marshals to have them, as I'm a lot less scared of some pussy with a plinker than I am rapid cabin depressurization. But, I can't see your post as anything but the result of fear mongering, as shown by your concern juxtaposed to the complete and utter absence of anything worth being worried about. I mean, what was it, 2-4k guns make it on every year? In their pocket, where they can get it? How many crimes? How many accidents resulted from this "clear and present danger"?

Live your life, friends. You're being hoodwinked.

Yes, it is a crime to bring a gun on a plane, but people aren't bringing guns on planes to commit crimes other than the crime of bringing a gun on a plane.

I'm not fear mongering, I'm merely pointing out that if someone doesn't have access to a gun on a plane, then they can't cause a problem with one.

The consequences of a gun incident on an airplane are much higher than in a neighborhood bar. Or on a train, or on a bus.

And again, you haven't heard about criminal acts with guns on planes because criminals aren't even attempting to do it. The risk of getting caught is too high, and it is harder to come up with a getaway plan.

But I'm not worried about criminals with guns on planes, I'm worried about idiots with guns on planes.

2-4k guns a year is a very tiny amount given the number of passengers a year. The more loaded, un-checked guns on a plane, times the number of passengers, times the number of flights, something accidental is nearly guaranteed to happen. And like I pointed out before, the potential consequences of an accident on a plane are much worse than elsewhere.

Is this an issue? Is someone advocating open or concealed carry for the general public on an airplane? Is it such a hassle to check your gun or check your ammo, or are people so afraid to be unarmed for a few hours?

Quote: Dalex64

I'm not fear mongering, I'm merely pointing out that if someone doesn't have access to a gun on a plane, then they can't cause a problem with one.

Sorry, wasn't implying that you were, rather that much of what I see re: conversations are BASED on the mongering done by the MSM and others. Perhaps I was off the mark with this one; the convo of planes and guns just caught me off guard like "wtf could they possibly be griping about now?", ya know? It just felt like shoehorning, much like MSM does whenever they can add immigrant status or foreign religion into things. Like, really, we're gonna reach that far now? lol

Quote: Dalex

Is this an issue? Is someone advocating open or concealed carry for the general public on an airplane? Is it such a hassle to check your gun or check your ammo, or are people so afraid to be unarmed for a few hours?

Not that I know of. I'm the biggest extremist I know, and I've no desire to rage for my right to carry on a plane. I find it perfectly acceptable because 1) there are (mostly implied but somewhat real) measures to make certain no one else has one, 2) the airline has taken the responsibility of my protection by way of sky police and armed Marshals, and 3) this is a location where I believe the presence of a firearm actually is more dangerous than being unarmed and fail to see how one could operate a firearm safely in any scenario. I feel the same about gun rights and gas wells, nuclear waste facilities, submarines, or anywhere else pressure and containment is of utmost, paramount importance.

So perhaps we are just arguing to argue, as this originated as a "why numbers go up" convo. Not only do I not have a problem with it, but flying with firearms is even easier than entering a controlled building. The courts make you take it off, unload it, receipt, etc. Airline just take a peek and you're done. Hardest part is not panicking for 6hrs that the numb s#$%s are gonna lose it XD

Quote: Face

I do not tolerate "lost guns"

What should the punishment be? Is $3,900 for a first time offense reasonable or unreasonable?

There are many many reasons why our society should have a zero tolerance for misplacing a gun, but one of the biggest reason is that children exist.

Envision bringing your gun to go furniture shopping at IKEA, you sit down on a couch, the gun gets dislodged from the holster and is left on the couch. A child finds the gun on the couch and pulls the trigger.

Envision bringing your gun to your church, you lose track of the gun, and a child finds it, and accidentally kills another child with it.

In the United States, more children die from guns than police officers do. In 2017, 144 police officers died in the line of duty. Between 1999 and 2017, an average of 340 children under the age of 14 died from guns annually.

Quote: reno

What should the punishment be? Is $3,900 for a first time offense reasonable or unreasonable?

Not to deflect, but parallel to gun stuff I've been reexamining my stance on crime and punishment as well, and have found ours to be severely wanting. One of the easiest and most harped upon examples I take umbrage with includes the one you gave, which is that fines based on financial penalty are essentially "legal crimes for rich people". Had I been a trust fund kid, there would have been no end to my street bike days, for example.

I do believe this type of "crime" is the type that could and would be affected by financial penalty. Since it is not of passion or desire but mostly simple irresponsibility, a financial nudge, IMO and IME, is effective. Much like I don't do no more rolling stops at the corner of 249, cuz the reason I used to (laziness, don't want to clutch) ain't worth the $200. But even $200, I would imagine, would not appease for being so low, whereas I personally have been in the position where a $200 fine could (and one time did) result in a spiraling deficit I just couldn't catch again.

I don't think I have the mathematical mind to put a number on an idea. And I'm damn sure too biased against our current justice system to be fair about it lol =p

Quote: reno

There are many many reasons why our society should have a zero tolerance for misplacing a gun, but one of the biggest reason is that children exist.

Envision bringing your gun to go furniture shopping at IKEA, you sit down on a couch, the gun gets dislodged from the holster and is left on the couch. A child finds the gun on the couch and pulls the trigger.

Envision bringing your gun to your church, you lose track of the gun, and a child finds it, and accidentally kills another child with it.

In the United States, more children die from guns than police officers do. In 2017, 144 police officers died in the line of duty. Between 1999 and 2017, an average of 340 children under the age of 14 died from guns annually.

I'm not sure if you read my thread, but you're preaching to the choir.

I hope and like to think that most people are like me. After all, a vast, vast majority of the things I know and the good gunner traits I carry are not mine but stuff that was taught from others. I shared my story, innocent as I feel it was, but I'm at least wise enough to envision scenarios playing out differently. Had I not been pulled over that night and sort of forced to think about the inner pocket, I might not have remembered that my .40 was on me then. It could've been days more I could've been rolling around unknowingly, tossed in the locker room, left in the car, tucked under my seat at work, easy as a pack of gum to abscond with. But, precisely because of the lessons learned from others, habits changed. For the loaded weapons in my home, I can tell you exactly their location, firing condition, and the exact orientation whether in cupboard / shelf / drawer / what have you. I made a mistake, learned, and my entire situation leapt in safety. I did that because others taught me to. Seems safe to assume it's because it's what others do. And with your supplied 200,000 per year lost or stolen v the 300,000,000 in private hands, the resulting figure of 0.06% being troublesome, I feel, supports my stance.

I don't know how you feel about this, but it's exactly what triggers me. No one argues the horrors we've seen. But when you sit down with the boring numbers, it's plain to see there's no sweeping, snappy titled directive that's gonna be a panacea. You have to dig in and do some work.

So, that's what I (try to) do with this, and my thread, and carry it into real life. Educate, and learn. If you're close enough to enter my home, or send your children to my home, we're close enough to talk guns on both ends. Since I live on "Government Row" (all CO's and Sheriffs), it's perhaps more normalized, but anyone and everyone gets a talk. You don't shoot? I'll take you. Pro or con, I'll at least give and show real information. Like it and want to continue? (100% have) Then we can continue into all manner of gunnery and start your path to training. Don't want no part? Then at least be aware there's many here, and let's have a talk with us and the kid. Ain't no different than letting them know you have a dog, or a 3' deep pond in your driveway, or any other source of possible danger. You know, be involved, educated, proactive.

Best thing I can do about idiot gunners is not be one of them, I'm afraid.

Quote: reno

What should the punishment be? Is $3,900 for a first time offense reasonable or unreasonable?

This weekend I accidentally went through the airport TSA with a full sized tube of toothpaste. Clearly that is against TSA rules and I know that. I wasn't fined, I was was offered the option of throwing it away or going back and checking it in my luggage. Why should a gun be any different. My tube of plastic explosives hidden in a toothpaste tube could be a lot more dangerous than a handgun.

Quote: Face

So perhaps we are just arguing to argue, as this originated as a "why numbers go up" convo. Not only do I not have a problem with it, but flying with firearms is even easier than entering a controlled building. The courts make you take it off, unload it, receipt, etc. Airline just take a peek and you're done. Hardest part is not panicking for 6hrs that the numb s#$%s are gonna lose it XD

I think we agree, we just didn't realize it.

As Captain Ramius once said: "Ryan, some things in here don't react well to bullets."