Gun Control

Quote: Gandler

Also, I am not sure that I follow the argument, grenades are illegal in Sweden (as they are virtually everywhere.) People still do stuff that is illegal (to a much lesser extent). But, what is the policy path here, if some terrorists and radicals smuggle grenades in (most seem to be obtained by terrorist groups and old cold war era stockpiles floating the black market), should grenades be legal for everyone? Will less crazy people attack crowds with grenades if everyone carries them? Can grenades even be used for self defense?

The argument/point here is all the lefties on here and elsewhere think gun laws stop gun violence so we need more of them for the sake of having more of them. I pointed out to SP above what needs to be done to stop gun violence vs. simply making gun laws. Thing is what I pointed out is harder to do than pass a simple gun law. For example, schools being gun free zones has made no difference in gun and other violence at schools.

The same argument can be made about knife violence in Britain where guns are very hard to get. The violence is still there.

If you want less violence there are ways but in the collapsing society we are in this will take much effort. So quit feeling good about yourself when you say you want more gun laws.

Quote: AZDuffman

The argument/point here is all the lefties on here and elsewhere think gun laws stop gun violence so we need more of them for the sake of having more of them. I pointed out to SP above what needs to be done to stop gun violence vs. simply making gun laws. Thing is what I pointed out is harder to do than pass a simple gun law. For example, schools being gun free zones has made no difference in gun and other violence at schools.

The same argument can be made about knife violence in Britain where guns are very hard to get. The violence is still there.

If you want less violence there are ways but in the collapsing society we are in this will take much effort. So quit feeling good about yourself when you say you want more gun laws.

So why don't the states with high gun crimes emulate the laws and policies of the states with lower gun crimes?

Quote: Tanko

Only a few hours by car.

"A majority of the California-recovered firearms traced to out-of-state sources were traced to dealers in three states: Arizona (30%), Nevada (14%), and Texas (10%).”

Yes, but a few hours by car cut out a lot of sketch people by definition. There is no way to walk to Arizona (realistically). It still can happen, but this geographic buffer zone (large desert) makes it far more isolated compared to small states that have massive cities hugging multiple borders.

Quote: AZDuffman

The argument/point here is all the lefties on here and elsewhere think gun laws stop gun violence so we need more of them for the sake of having more of them. I pointed out to SP above what needs to be done to stop gun violence vs. simply making gun laws. Thing is what I pointed out is harder to do than pass a simple gun law. For example, schools being gun free zones has made no difference in gun and other violence at schools.

The same argument can be made about knife violence in Britain where guns are very hard to get. The violence is still there.

If you want less violence there are ways but in the collapsing society we are in this will take much effort. So quit feeling good about yourself when you say you want more gun laws.

Of course gun laws lessen gun violence, you can literally scale it by State or internationally and scale homicide by gun per capita and compare by gun restriction in X State or X Nation.

The UK knife argument is silly. Knives can be devastating, but you can only knife one person at a time (and it is often a process, not an instant thing.) Guns are simply more effective for quickly killing (especially for killing multiple people quickly.) In 2022 UK had 261 knife homicides with a population of 70ish million. The numbers are not in yet for American gun homicides (not counting suicides) for 2022, but it is almost certainly over 20k. I would take UK's "knife homicide problem" any day over this..... Also, Knives are legal in the UK, guns are technically legal (but so hard to get, I am fine if you want to call them illegal.) This shows that gun laws are working, because ganbangers (if that would be the term here), are being forced to switch to knives (and are being much less effective).

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04304/



So yes UK has violence, nowhere close to the same scale as the U.S.


Can you cite one Country that had a significant increase in gun restrictions and had a rise in gun homicide rates?

(I know you can't because even the NRA cannot, instead they hyper focus on local and state examples that are irrelevant to national police):
https://www.nraila.org/why-gun-control-doesn-t-work/
(Though to be fair, they do make one good point, that police need to aggressively enforce improperly registered firearms and illegally obtained firearms. Of course, they gloss over the main issue of why we have so many improperly registered and illegally obtained firearms......)


And, again we have a significantly higher murder and suicide rate compared to the UK:
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime
It is such a difference, it is not even close. We have approx a 2X suicide rate, a 4X intentional homicide rate, and an 18X murder rate. There is no equivalence (even scaling per capita) in the violence crime between U.S. and U.K.

A lot of people at the country music concert in Vegas would have been a lot better off if the 64 y/o shooter had come down there and tried to kill 57 of them with a knife.

Quote: rxwine

A lot of people at the country music concert in Vegas would have been a lot better off if the 64 y/o shooter had come down there and tried to kill 57 of them with a knife.

They would have been even better off if we just made it illegal to shoot people. Or if the hotel banned guns on their premises.

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from the 4 different links re homicide comparison between the U.S. and England


"most handguns have been banned in Great Britain since the Dublane school massacre in 1996"

"what is the most recent US-UK picture? There were 17,284 homicides in the US in 2017, giving a rate of 5.3 per 100,000. In Britain, there were 785 in financial year 2017/18 — the nearest equivalent time period — giving a rate of 1.8 per 100,000, some three times lower."


also from the statista links:


"in England in 2022 - 10.1 homicides for every one million people" which equals slightly more than 1 per 100,000

"in the U.S. in 2021 there were 6.9 homicides per 100,000 people"



https://www.statista.com/statistics/288195/homicide-rate-uk/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191223/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Subject%20to%20licensing%2C%20members%20of,which%20have%20their%20own%20legislation.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/06/18/deadly-knife-crime-how-does-london-compare-to-new-york#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20most%20recent,100%2C000%2C%20some%20three%20times%20lower.

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Quote: PotPie

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from the 4 different links re homicide comparison between the U.S. and England


"most handguns have been banned in Great Britain since the Dublane school massacre in 1996"

"what is the most recent US-UK picture? There were 17,284 homicides in the US in 2017, giving a rate of 5.3 per 100,000. In Britain, there were 785 in financial year 2017/18 — the nearest equivalent time period — giving a rate of 1.8 per 100,000, some three times lower."


also from the statista links:


"in England in 2022 - 10.1 homicides for every one million people" which equals slightly more than 1 per 100,000

"in the U.S. in 2021 there were 6.9 homicides per 100,000 people"



https://www.statista.com/statistics/288195/homicide-rate-uk/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191223/reported-murder-and-nonnegligent-manslaughter-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Subject%20to%20licensing%2C%20members%20of,which%20have%20their%20own%20legislation.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/06/18/deadly-knife-crime-how-does-london-compare-to-new-york#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20most%20recent,100%2C000%2C%20some%20three%20times%20lower.

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Of course, the U.S. far more dangerous than the U.K. on any violence metrics (without even getting into suicide comparisons.) I am pretty sure only Alex Jones fans insist that the levels are equivalent. Their average life expectancy is also 10 years greater than the U.S. there is no comparison on which one is safer by any honest actor.

Supreme court to be working on a case whether a man who has been involved in domestic violence can own a gun. Back in the founder's day, it would have been fine. Conservative court will have fun with that one.

Quote: rxwine

Supreme court to be working on a case whether a man who has been involved in domestic violence can own a gun. Back in the founder's day, it would have been fine. Conservative court will have fun with that one.

Need to tread very careful as domestic violence is getting more and more broadly defined.

I doubt domestic violence was a huge issue in the Founder's time. In any case, we did not have much gun violence then.