Owning Mahowny

Quote: Mosca

It's never about the money. It's about the action.

Yes, its the same way that an addict is more addicted to the needle than to the heroin.

The casinos wanted to take the Canadian banker's money but keep their knowledge of who he was out of the paper trail.

Casinos greedy? Of course they are. That is how they make their money. They would spread 5:6 Blackjack if they could!

Quote: Evenbob

We observe foibles in other people and create
morality as a result. The morality does not exist
outside of us creating it.

So certain actions lead to bad or good consequences and we create morality by labeling these things bad or good. Okay, but the fact of the matter is that the actions are still objectively evil or good, whether we create morality to name them as such.

Quote: Evenbob

That's the problem with this conversation. You, as
a Catholic, have to take it on faith that morality
and god and good and evil exist on their own outside
of us. That's the point of it. If you could prove in
any way they existed separately, religion would have
no purpose.

The problem with this conversation is your unwillingness to admit you are wrong. I have not in this conversation brought up Catholicism or faith. The fact of the matter is there are actions that experience, reason, and logic show us are beyond doubt intrinsically evil.

Quote: Nareed

I feel safe in asking this: have you ever had a drink?

Once you count alcohol and tobacco, I'm williing to bet a majority of the population "does" drugs. More if you also add caffeine (I know I have a delicious caffeine dependency, which I manage rather well).

I'm sorry that I have been preoccupied in this runaway thread and didn't get to answer your question.

Yes, I have had a drink and at times too many. I only smoke a cigar or Solemnities and I also have a caffeine addiction that I picked up in Rome.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm sorry that I have been preoccupied in this runaway thread and didn't get to answer your question.

Sometimes you ought to be concerend more about whom you're arguing with.

Quote:

...I also have a caffeine addiction that I picked up in Rome.

Excelent place to pick one up ;)

Rather inevitable, too.

Quote: FrGamble

actions are still objectively evil or good, whether we create morality to name them as such.
.

For the 8th time, that's your opinion, because
it can't be proven. That's the crux of religion.
You can't prove god exists. If you could prove
it, religion would be a waste of time. Why
would there be anybody on the planet who
was a nonbeliever.

That's the purpose of faith. And that's why some
very religious people lose their faith, because
nothing of what believe has proof.

For the ninth and final time you do not need any faith to prove that there are actions that are objectively evil. I don't know why you do not want to see that or acknowledge it, but because you won't you are left holding a revolting premise that goes against both reason and experience. I'm beyond disappointed in you in this regard. People told me I was wasting my time in arguing with you about this point, but I did have faith in Evenbob that he would at least admit that the most heinous human acts like rape, could not from any perspective or condition be called good. My faith is shaken in good old Bob, but it is not gone.

Quote: FrGamble

you do not need any faith to prove that there are actions that are objectively evil. .

Still waiting for just one example, the ones
you've given are just your opinion of evil.
It dies not exist on its own, it's an idea, a
concept. The concepts of good and evil are
relative terms. What might be considered
'good' in a certain area or place, might be
considered 'evil' in another. Good and evil
all depend on a person's outlook and attitude.
They cannot be defined clearly, and are
dependent on a person's perspective.

This is why crime is so confusing to some
people. Crime is supposed to be evil, yet
many of those who do it as a way of life
live very well indeed, and never get caught.
Whoever said crime doesn't pay has no idea
what he's talking about.

Quote: Evenbob

Still waiting for just one example, the ones
you've given are just your opinion of evil.
It dies not exist on its own, it's an idea, a
concept. The concepts of good and evil are
relative terms. What might be considered
'good' in a certain area or place, might be
considered 'evil' in another. Good and evil
all depend on a person's outlook and attitude.
They cannot be defined clearly, and are
dependent on a person's perspective.

So you think it is only my opinion that the Holocaust was evil?!? You think that you can imagine an area, place, outlook, or attitude where rape would be a good thing? I would be interested what proof you could provide for that. My evidence is just about every thinking person in the world who would all regardless of area, religion or lack there of, attitude, or perspective agree with me that the murder of an innocent child is evil. What possible evidence could you provide that such universal rejection of an action is based on anything other than the fact that we know such actions are evil independent of any of our diverse opinions, concepts or perspectives? No sane thinking person could call any of the above examples good and I defy you to disagree.

Quote: FrGamble

What possible evidence could you provide .

I have no evidence that the universe is
a moral place that can tell the difference
between good and evil. Neither do you.

I have no assumptions about the universe. It's
not fair or unfair, good or evil, right or wrong.
It just is. I suspect your version is a lot more
exciting than mine, lots of sturm and drang
going on all the time.

Can a person commit evil acts, or what are
considered evil acts? Absolutely. Does the
evil exist outside of thought? Absolutely not.

Even the Buddha said:

"By oneself one does evil. By oneself one is defiled.
By oneself one abstains from evil. By oneself one
is purified. Purity and impurity are personal matters."

In other words, evil doesn't exist outside of us,
it's a name we give to certain actions we take.
Nothing outside of us is compelling us to do
them.

Lets look at this another way, we keep going in
circles. Look at the murders in Calif. We can all
agree that it was an evil act for a boy to kill those
people. His intent was evil, the act was evil. But
evil doesn't exist outside the act or outside our
opinion of it. Evil doesn't lurk, it doesn't plot,
it has no existence in and of itself. It's not a
'thing'. Evil doesn't sneak in and overtake a
person against his will.