Evolution and the Pope

Quote: aceofspades

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Doing good is just something I do because it makes me feel good, which, actually, is a selfish reason. So, if feeling good is selfish but the catalyst for the feeling is doing good for others, we have quite the conundrum.

I think that is why people give when you get right down to it. They give because it feels good to do so, as in the saying "its better to give then receive".

Take gift giving, xmas exchange or other example. Somebody gives me something like say a nicknack, I don't want it but it makes them feel good and the same in reverse. That is probably why I tip, it doesn't change the receivers life, especially my small amounts but I "feel" better for doing so.

My take on it being selfish making yourself feel good is likewise different. If I have a bug bite that itches like crazy, it feels good if I scratch it, that is not selfish. Its just doing something for myself.

I don't think we always give hoping to get something in return, I think the pleasure is right then and there in the giving, we do it because it makes us feel good.

Quote: Evenbob

And a shadow of what it once was. For
a thousand years it was the most powerful
and influential organization in the world.
It's mighty power was felt in every corner
of the civilized world. Pope's led war's
and ordered crusades and inquisitions.
The chuches power and wealth grew
by leaps and bounds.

Today it's marked by constant scandal,
with problems getting nuns and priests
to devote there lives to it, and run by
an old man dressed in funny clothes
who rides around in a bulletproof pope-
mobile. Oh how for the great have fallen.

Wait Bob , I think the new pope eschews the pope-mobile and walks.
I don't want the truth to be misrepresented lol

Quote: FrGamble

"Did you know your message would be a record breaker?"

Padre, the lyric to that catchy tune is

Did you know your messy death would be a record breaker?

{After 2,000 years of people trying to knock it down or blow it over it still stands strong today .}

These stats show the true state of the modern
church.

9% of Catholic nuns are under the age of
60. "There are more Catholic sisters in the
United States over age 90 than under age 60."

That's incredible. Obviously an important part
of the church is dying at a rapid rate. Women's
Lib is having a major impact on the Church.
Young women are avoiding the life in droves
and all the new recruits are old ladies who
look at it as a good retirement gig. Not a
good sign. The US population has grown
a lot in the last 50 years, yet the number of
nuns is 70% less than it was in the mid 60's.

http://www.religionnews.com/2014/10/13/declining-number-u-s-nuns-even-among-traditional-orders-charted-new-study/

Quote: FrGamble

I agree with Nareed on this point,

I'm going to reply using your means:

We're agreed, then, that religious is pernicious.

I must say I'm surprised to hear you say this ;)

Quote: FrGamble

So could we say that temporary pain is temporary suffering?

No. Because I know pain and I know suffering, and they're not always the same thing.

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Listen, even if you stick to your artificial distinction between pain and suffering do you want to hold to the idea that not everyone suffers?

Not everyone suffers, and for sure not everyone suffers to the same degree.

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Okay, but he doesn't have to give anything at all. He is moved to think beyond himself and focuses on the other. This is the hallmark of virtue.

I think that scraping and screeching is the sound of goal posts being moved.

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What I am saying is that for someone to do anything good it requires them to not think of themselves first but rather to focus on the plight or situation of the other.

About sixty years ago, a group of businessmen and industrialists located in Monterrey, Mexico, did something truly horrible. Faced with a shortage of qualified engineers and technicians for their factories en plants, they set up a university to produce more. Seeing how some could not afford the tuition, they set up scholarships. In time they expanded the courses offered to cover business degrees as well as the liberal arts. They did this for the sole purpose of creating a large pool of talented people they could recruit for their own benefit.

Bastards. How dare they?

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Umm...that is pretty much what He did. He lived the vast majority of His life in obscurity as a son of a poor carpenter.

At that time in Judea a poor carpenter would have been well off compared to a peasant or the average urban dweller. See, your average city resident would work for someone like the poor carpenter.

Quote: FrGamble

Yeah I agree it [edit: it refers to the riddles and Zen philosophy Evenbob describes] does sound like a waste of time.

Well, Father, you should try it some time and then decide if it is.

Quote: Nareed

Not everyone suffers, and for sure not everyone suffers to the same degree.

This is true but do we really want to try and measure how much someone suffers compared to another. This seems quite impossible to do and runs the risk of trivializing someone's suffering that might not be in yours eyes great but truly overwhelming to her.

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I think that scraping and screeching is the sound of goal posts being moved.

Either that or the sound of effort to get us to focus on the main point.

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About sixty years ago, a group of businessmen and industrialists located in Monterrey, Mexico, did something truly horrible. Faced with a shortage of qualified engineers and technicians for their factories en plants, they set up a university to produce more. Seeing how some could not afford the tuition, they set up scholarships. In time they expanded the courses offered to cover business degrees as well as the liberal arts. They did this for the sole purpose of creating a large pool of talented people they could recruit for their own benefit.

Bastards. How dare they?

This is a great story of people who are willing to spend their time, heroic effort, and money to set up a university to educate people - one of the noblest tasks we can do. Yes there is some benefit for them, but it is giving people a much greater gift than the founders of this university would ever hope to receive, namely an education. Then they also decide to sacrifice even more to help people and establish scholarships and offer other degrees, wow! I'm just guessing but I bet the founder of this university must have been raised a Catholic or went to a Catholic school. They sound like the opposite of bastards and closer to saints.

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At that time in Judea a poor carpenter would have been well off compared to a peasant or the average urban dweller. See, your average city resident would work for someone like the poor carpenter.

And a peasant would be well off compared to a man crucified. It seems as if Jesus' life spanned the spectrum from hard worker poor laborer, to peasant preacher depending on others for such things as clothes and food, to a condemned criminal. I reckon that the vast majority of the world's current population along with those in His time could identify with His life.

{After 2,000 years of people trying to knock it down or blow it over it still stands strong today .}

"America's Catholic population is rising by 1 percent annually, but seminary enrollment is flat. An inadequate supply of priests already has forced hundreds of parishes to close or consolidate. Priests aren't getting any younger, either. Their average age is 63...In 1975, there were 58,909 priests in the United States. Today, Georgetown's CARA puts the figure at 39,600, a 33 percent drop."

Couple this with the nun crisis, and you
have a dying church, one that's downsizing,
forced to close parishes all over the country.
I would hardly call this 'standing strong'.
1% growth is not even keeping up with the
people born into the religion and are forced
to be catholic's.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2014/05/25/us-catholics-face-shortage-of-priests/9548931/

Quote: FrGamble

Either that or the sound of effort to get us to focus on the main point.

Goal posts. I'm familiar with that sound.

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This is a great story of people who are willing to spend their time, heroic effort, and money to set up a university to educate people - one of the noblest tasks we can do.

I can agree with that. More so since I studied there (which is why I know the story).

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Yes there is some benefit for them,

I can see goal posts moving south for the winter...

They didn't derive some benefit. They set up the whole thing entirely for their own benefit.

Naturally they offered something of value in return. Had they not, their entire enterprise would have failed.

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Then they also decide to sacrifice even more to help people and establish scholarships and offer other degrees, wow!

This is eminently sensible of them. A good engineer can come from any background, It would be wasteful to summarily dismiss good candidates because they can't pay tuition. People in business tend to think in the long term. A scholarship fund is a good investment, not a sacrifice.

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They sound like the opposite of bastards and closer to saints.

But they sacrificed nothing, suffered nothing and acted for their own benefit. How can that be good?

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And a peasant would be well off compared to a man crucified. It seems as if Jesus' life spanned the spectrum from hard worker poor laborer, to peasant preacher depending on others for such things as clothes and food, to a condemned criminal. I reckon that the vast majority of the world's current population along with those in His time could identify with His life.

I've never been a criminal of any sort. Last I checked, I've never been crucified, either.