Evolution and the Pope

Quote: Nareed

Goal posts. I'm familiar with that sound.

It is a grind sometimes.

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I can agree with that. More so since I studied there (which is why I know the story).

So you are familiar with Don Eugenio Garza Sada and his story.

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I can see goal posts moving south for the winter...

They didn't derive some benefit. They set up the whole thing entirely for their own benefit.

Naturally they offered something of value in return. Had they not, their entire enterprise would have failed.

I hate to educate you on your school but it was not set up only for their own benefit. There was never a requirement that those who got degrees from there had to work in certain factories. You simply don't set up a university just for your own benefit. You do that because you care about education, you want people locally in your community to be educated, you want to serve. In fact the current philosophy of said university is "to serve".

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This is eminently sensible of them. A good engineer can come from any background, It would be wasteful to summarily dismiss good candidates because they can't pay tuition. People in business tend to think in the long term. A scholarship fund is a good investment, not a sacrifice.

It is also eminently Christian of them to do this too. Good business people who are concerned for others think this way.

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But they sacrificed nothing, suffered nothing and acted for their own benefit. How can that be good?

You are right that would not be good, but that is NOT the case at all in the above example you gave.

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I've never been a criminal of any sort. Last I checked, I've never been crucified, either.

You are a hard worker though.

Quote: FrGamble

So you are familiar with Don Eugenio Garza Sada and his story.

I know anyone not named Garza Sada in Monterrey might as well be invisible ;)

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I hate to educate you on your school but it was not set up only for their own benefit. There was never a requirement that those who got degrees from there had to work in certain factories.

No, of course not. But the intent was to produce qualified graduates for their businesses. Many of them did. You can't force talented people, of the kind they wanted, to work where they don't want to work. They won't do a good job if you do that.

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You simply don't set up a university just for your own benefit.

They did. Sorry to disappoint you.

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You do that because you care about education, you want people locally in your community to be educated, you want to serve.

I want people in my area to have a good education because that is ultimately to my benefit. I do not serve.

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You are right that would not be good, but that is NOT the case at all in the above example you gave.

You keep saying that, but they did exactly as I said.

"The reasons that churches lose ground in developed countries can be summarized in market terms. First, with better science, and with government safety nets, and smaller families, there is less fear and uncertainty in people's daily lives and hence less of a market for religion."

'Religion evolved to help our ancestors cope with anxiety and insecurity. Supernatural belief is in decline everywhere that ordinary people enjoy a decent standard of living and are secure in their health and finances. The market for formal religion is also being squeezed by modern substitutes such as sports and entertainment.'

Some predict that in 25 years there will
be more atheists than religious people
in the world. It's being replaced by things
like sports, and the internet. Where people
used to get their feeling of community at
the local church, they now get it elsewhere.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Atheism-Will-Replace-Religion-ebook/dp/B00886ZSJ6

Quote: Nareed

They did. Sorry to disappoint you.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the founder of your school was inspired by his Catholic upbringing and education to start the non-political and non-religious university in question.

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I want people in my area to have a good education because that is ultimately to my benefit. I do not serve.

Since we can't come to terms with the example of this university, let's use a different example we both enjoy - cooking. Cooking is serving and sacrificing for your beloved guests. You slave away at the kitchen and you give them some of your food, this is not to your benefit but you do it. In cooking you put other's needs and preferences ahead of your own. You serve others and make them feel good. In the process I'm sure you feel great too, because God has hard wired us for this strange phenomenon that when we serve and lovingly sacrifice for others we never feel better. My mom always told me what the special ingredient was in her cooking and I imagine it is the same for you - love.

Quote: FrGamble

In the process I'm sure you feel great too, because God has hard wired us for this strange phenomenon .

We feel good because we are all connected in
a way we can't see. We are connected in the
universe, that's why people who risk their lives
to save someone say they were compelled to
do it because it felt like they were also saving
themselves. Giving god credit for everything
reduces the credit or blame we should be
taking ourselves. You can't make god the
scapegoat all the time.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm sorry to disappoint you,

You can only beat a dead horse so long before you realize it won't get up and canter.

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Cooking is serving and sacrificing for your beloved guests.

I suppose you could have picked a worse example, but I'm not sure.

I rarely cook for other people. 97% of the time, at a guess, I cook for myself. When I do cook for others, it's because I want to and expect something out of it: an outside opinion, making a treat for a friend, showing off my skills (I'm not above that), bringing a bit of light into the office, etc. There is no sacrifice involved. And no suffering, either.

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You slave away at the kitchen

From time to time I'm too tired and don't feel like cooking, but sometimes I have no choice. When I start cooking, even in such occasions, it's always a joy. More so since I started playing audio books while cooking.

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In cooking you put other's needs and preferences ahead of your own.

preferences perhaps. I do compromise and cut back on the garlic sometimes. But needs? come on.

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My mom always told me what the special ingredient was in her cooking and I imagine it is the same for you - love.

I've two special ingredients: corn starch and paprika.

Seriously, I've never understood that. I think it's a meaningless cliché.

Nareed, I think I might have figured it out. Your passion in talking about cooking gave it away. It's not that you aren't sacrificing, serving, and loving the few guests that have the honor of dining with you; it's just that you get so much pleasure from it that it doesn't feel like you are lovingly serving others. That's great and that is the way God has set it up. It is sign of your virtue, not the lack of it, that you can't see the sacrifice involved in cooking or starting a university.

I also love your statement about sometimes not wanting to do something good, like cooking, but then when you do it the result is always a joy. Doing good is always going to involve some challenge to ourselves and our natural tendency but when we overcome these obstacles we feel great. You could always order pizza or go out or eat junk, but instead we do what is harder and viola - joy! Working out, volunteering to help others, going to Church, calling a long lost friend, tackling the difficult problem at work - all similar examples. To reach that joy we often have to put aside what we might want to do and instead do what is good.

Quote: FrGamble

That's great and that is the way God has set it up.

So according to you then, you take credit
for nothing. You get to thank or blame god
for everything. Because if god 'set it up'
for you to do good, he also did the same
with evil. Right?

While God encourages us to do good He discourages us to do bad. He is trying hard but it takes two to tango. The greatest gift we have is free will and we can decide what to do no matter how much God has tipped the scales in favor of the good. No, sadly Evenbob we are to blame for our bad deeds. However, we can take some credit for our good ones.

Quote: FrGamble

we are to blame for our bad deeds. However, we can take some credit for our good ones.

There is too much picking and choosing going
on. My wife's family is very Christian and they
constantly thank god for everything. God is
behind it all, god has a plan, blah blah.

My brother in law had a tragic loss in the family
a few years ago and was that accredited to god?
My thought was, if god is behind everything, and
has a plan for everybody, and is thanked at every
turn, then this loss should be a good thing, right?

They didn't treat it that way at all. Makes them look
like mental patients to somebody looking in from
the outside. The good things are gods plan in action,
and he gets thanked. The bad things confuse them
and they wander around like they need meds..