Simple question?

Quote: rxwine

He either needs to admit it's faulty or be called on it continually.

It's rather futile to do so, though it may make you feel better.

I don't use the many parallels between the totalitarian ideologies of 1984 and Christianity just to be mean or to emphasize a point. I use them because there are many such parallels. Doublethink in particular is an essential virtue for that cult. You'll never get anywhere pointing out inherent contradictions and double standards, because their ideology is designed to route around them.

Quote: Nareed

And after they keep coming again and again, month after month with the same confession? Telling you each time how miserable and unbearable they find their life when they try to abstain from having natural sexual relations with the person they love? What then?

There is no limit to God's mercy but if they continue to feel miserable and unbearable then obviously something is wrong. Counseling is not done in confession and I think they might want to discuss why unnatural sexual relations are so important. If every couple who couldn't have sex with their loved one fell into such angst and misery and considered life unbearable we would be in trouble. There are other ways to express love and grow in intimacy.

If you want to take this out of the hypothetical and look at what really happens to homosexual couples when they live according to the Church's teaching you can read about it at the Courage website. In my experience people come back to discovering that their worth is not tied up in their orientation or in sexual activity then implicitly already know is disordered but in the fact that they are a child of God infinitely loved and called to love others in a chaste and holy way that leads to true happiness and fulfillment. This is real, the scenario you are talking about is in my experience make believe.

Quote: Nareed

It's rather futile to do so

Lol. I don't suppose Socrates got rewarded all the time either-- just people trying to kill him eventually.

Goes with the territory, I guess.

Quote: rxwine

Lol. I don't suppose Socrates got rewarded all the time either-- just people trying to kill him eventually.

Goes with the territory, I guess.

Yes, this does go with the territory. Socrates, my Lord, and anyone who tries to point out the truth. People want to kill them or silence them with outlandish statements, faulty arguments, or simply attack them like you see here.

Quote: Nareed

It's rather futile to do so, though it may make you feel better.

I don't use the many parallels between the totalitarian ideologies of 1984 and Christianity just to be mean or to emphasize a point. I use them because there are many such parallels. Doublethink in particular is an essential virtue for that cult. You'll never get anywhere pointing out inherent contradictions and double standards, because their ideology is designed to route around them.

You want totalitarian parallels? Look how you respond to challenges about your worldview or philosophy? You want to go to war over ideology, I want a rational discussion. If one didn't know any better they would think you were in some super secret cult.

What contradictions are you referring to? What double standards? They are all in your mind.

Quote: FrGamble

There is no limit to God's mercy but if they continue to feel miserable and unbearable then obviously something is wrong.

Yes, you're making them feel guilty and inadequate for engaging in natural, intimate, life-affirming expressions of love.

But then it doesn't look that way when Oppression is Love.

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Counseling is not done in confession

Of course not. Your job is to manufacture psychological misery for counselors to deal with afterwards. Providing counseling would go against thins.

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and I think they might want to discuss why unnatural sexual relations are so important.

What's unnatural about desiring intimacy with the person one loves?

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If every couple who couldn't have sex with their loved one fell into such angst and misery and considered life unbearable we would be in trouble.

I'm sorry. I wasn't aware the church counseled breeder couples from having sex at all and to live a chaste life.

Oh, wait.

Quote: FrGamble

What contradictions are you referring to? What double standards? They are all in your mind.

See?

I label this Plaintiff's Exhibit A.

Quote: rxwine

Lol. I don't suppose Socrates got rewarded all the time either-- just people trying to kill him eventually.

I don't think Socrates actually employed the Socratic method as portrayed by Plato.

Rule number one and by far the most important rule of life: no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.

Think of the many times you've had the perfect, irrefutable argument, only to find the other person didn't respond as you expected. You see this type of thing here every single day. Can you really believe Socrates got people to recognize their own ignorance and shortcomings by asking penetrating questions?

It makes for great reading, and in the hands of Prof J. Rufus Fears (look him up in the Great Courses series), it makes for an amazing audio performance, too. But I don't believe it.

More likely Socrates irritated people by not going along with their sensibilities, in trying to uncover their ignorance and shortcomings. That's why he wound up murdered.

Quote: Nareed

I don't think Socrates actually employed the Socratic method as portrayed by Plato.

Rule number one and by far the most important rule of life: no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.

Think of the many times you've had the perfect, irrefutable argument, only to find the other person didn't respond as you expected. You see this type of thing here every single day. Can you really believe Socrates got people to recognize their own ignorance and shortcomings by asking penetrating questions?

It makes for great reading, and in the hands of Prof J. Rufus Fears (look him up in the Great Courses series), it makes for an amazing audio performance, too. But I don't believe it.

Oh, I don't either.

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More likely Socrates irritated people by not going along with their sensibilities, in trying to uncover their ignorance and shortcomings. That's why he wound up murdered.

Of course.

As far as I'm concerned, much of the Catholic Churches moralizing on things like the concerns of the LBGT community, is no more physiologically, than a war of righthanders on the lefthanders. Except that they have helped damage and ruin lives on such things of the lefthanders, it would be harmless. Their contempt for it continues until they see otherwise, which I doubt will actually happen. You can't lack contempt until you absolutely resolve to stop blaming the thing for its existence, no matter how nice you are about it.

Quote: Nareed

But then it doesn't look that way when Oppression is Love.

Your view is that Oppression is Truth. It might very well be at times. I know that sometimes when I encounter things other people say as challenging my accepted world view then it feels like oppression or even hate, when really it is an uncomfortable truth or fact of history.

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Of course not. Your job is to manufacture psychological misery for counselors to deal with afterwards. Providing counseling would go against thins.

I remember a psychologist confronting my mom once saying that if only Catholics took seriously the truth they are told in Confession that they are precious and loved unconditionally by God then he would be out of a job.

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What's unnatural about desiring intimacy with the person one loves?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Why do you think that intimacy with the person one loves can only be expressed or even best expressed using genitals?

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I'm sorry. I wasn't aware the church counseled breeder couples from having sex at all and to live a chaste life.

Of course not, but you would be surprised how often couples because of health reasons or just because one spouse or another is not interested have to refrain from having sex. It can be a hardship but I don't consul them to break up or force themselves on their spouse. What would you consul a couple who for various reasons cannot any longer have sex?