Israeli conflict

Quote: SOOPOO

Hamas has released a video of a hostage digging his own grave. His appearance is described as a ‘human skeleton’. No tears from me for the hundreds if not thousands who may lose their lives if in the search for this hostage. How many ‘innocent’ Gazans are aware of his whereabouts? How many actively work to keep him tortured and hidden? How many supported actions of their elected government, Hamas?

There can be no ‘proportionality’ in Israel’s response. Whatever increases the chance of freeing a single hostage is worth it. You can argue their tactics do not achieve that goal. But not against their right to use whatever means are needed.

You would be hard-pressed to find a bigger supporter of Israel than me. But, I don't agree with this premise. An organization holding a hostage does not give an organization an unlimited use of force right, it just doesn't.

If a gang is holding a hostage in an apartment building, the police can't blow up the building because there is a chance that the hostage may be able to escape in the confusion. You may say this isn't fair because it's not opposing nations, but then take the Afghanistan War, how many American soldiers were captured by the Taliban? Did we randomly blow up Taliban villages because they had POWs? Of course not, because you can't do that.

Somebody (gang, nation, whatever...) having a hostage definitely does not grant a right of doing anything they want that hypothetically may increase the escape/freeing of a hostage.

Quote: AZDuffman

Only way to settle it is relocate the Palestinians to the Saini and let Israel have their rightful land in Gaza.

Nah, just starve em to death, like their plan has been all along.

Then introduce anthrax to kill off any survivors.

Quote: missedhervee

Nah, just starve em to death, like their plan has been all along.

Then introduce anthrax to kill off any survivors.

If they would leave Israel alone they would be fine. But they keep attacking.

Quote: Gandler

You would be hard-pressed to find a bigger supporter of Israel than me. But, I don't agree with this premise. An organization holding a hostage does not give an organization an unlimited use of force right, it just doesn't.

If a gang is holding a hostage in an apartment building, the police can't blow up the building because there is a chance that the hostage may be able to escape in the confusion. You may say this isn't fair because it's not opposing nations, but then take the Afghanistan War, how many American soldiers were captured by the Taliban? Did we randomly blow up Taliban villages because they had POWs? Of course not, because you can't do that.

Somebody (gang, nation, whatever...) having a hostage definitely does not grant a right of doing anything they want that hypothetically may increase the escape/freeing of a hostage.

Reasonable thoughts. But you neglect that this is the elected government that organized the murderous raid. That continues the torture of the hostages. With a people totally complicit. Even with celebrations over the return of dead hostages. This is not ‘a gang’. This is the elected leaders of a people. And their people carrying out the murder/torture.

Just so we are clear, you would not celebrate this….?

1000 Gazans killed in raid that frees last 20 surviving hostages.

I’d be ecstatic.

Quote: SOOPOO

Reasonable thoughts. But you neglect that this is the elected government that organized the murderous raid. That continues the torture of the hostages. With a people totally complicit. Even with celebrations over the return of dead hostages. This is not ‘a gang’. This is the elected leaders of a people. And their people carrying out the murder/torture.

Just so we are clear, you would not celebrate this….?

1000 Gazans killed in raid that frees last 20 surviving hostages.

I’d be ecstatic.

Hamas was democratically elected in 2006. Almost 50% of Gaza is under 18 years old, none of them were there in 2006 to vote or support Hamas... There has been no election since 2006 (because Hamas will not allow it, and will deal quite violently with any attempts to restore Democracy.)

So yes, they won one election (in what was almost certainly a rigged election where they also killed and targeted political opponents -fellow Gazans-) and once they had full power, never allowed another election. They are technically an elected government, but it is a bit loose of a definition.

You are a very smart guy and well educated on Israeli history, I know you know all of this, you are just hiding the ball...

________________

The above being said, even if your circumstance was true and a fair representation, heck let us say for a thought experiment, 95% of the current population supports (actually supports, not rigged polls) Hamas. That does not give Israel clearance to kill people who support their enemies. During WWII, we were not allowed to go street to street in Berlin blowing up children (even if the axis quite literally did that....)

The problem with "rules of war" and even just basic principles of ethics and human decency, is Hamas and similar organizations do not follow them. But, Israel is expected to be the adult so to speak and follow them. Yes, this is a double standard, and I have no issue with it. And, yes I apply the same double standard to the U.S. when dealing with the Taliban and anything else. Operating ethically and avoiding innocent death is always critical.

And, no killing 1000 innocent people to save 20 innocent people is not what I call a win that I would celebrate. Yes, it is easy to have rose tinted binoculars when the 20 are people you care about and the 1000 are people you don't (or maybe you actively dislike even.) But, this is why people making such decisions are supposed to be highly rational and not emotional.

Quote: SOOPOO

Reasonable thoughts. But you neglect that this is the elected government that organized the murderous raid. That continues the torture of the hostages. With a people totally complicit. Even with celebrations over the return of dead hostages. This is not ‘a gang’. This is the elected leaders of a people. And their people carrying out the murder/torture.

Just so we are clear, you would not celebrate this….?

1000 Gazans killed in raid that frees last 20 surviving hostages.

I’d be ecstatic.

It’s not been a truly elected government for quite awhile. And maybe even the majority of Gazans agree with Hamas. Still doesn’t make extreme collateral damage correct to all the rest.

Quote: rxwine

It’s not been a truly elected government for quite awhile. And maybe even the majority of Gazans agree with Hamas. Still doesn’t make extreme collateral damage correct to all the rest.

Just so I’m not misunderstood……. Israel should do what’s reasonable to limit civilian collateral damage in its mission to free the hostages presently being held and tortured. What should they do when the hostages are being held in the basement of a hospital? When they are embedded with the terrorists family?

Many of you keep harping on Hamas not having been elected RECENTLY. Where is the other Middle Eastern countries’ efforts to free the Gazan people from their true captors, Hamas? NOWHERE. Qatar and Egypt recognize Hamas as legitimate. Heck, so does France and Ireland. They say ‘Palestine’ is a ‘state’, and engage in negotiations with HAMAS as their representatives.

My simple solution. If Hamas UNCONDITIONALLY frees the remaining hostages tomorrow, Israel opens the floodgates of needed aid. You know it. I know it. AND HAMAS KNOWS IT. They just don’t care about the suffering of their own people.

Quote: Gandler

You would be hard-pressed to find a bigger supporter of Israel than me. But, I don't agree with this premise. An organization holding a hostage does not give an organization an unlimited use of force right, it just doesn't.

If a gang is holding a hostage in an apartment building, the police can't blow up the building because there is a chance that the hostage may be able to escape in the confusion. You may say this isn't fair because it's not opposing nations, but then take the Afghanistan War, how many American soldiers were captured by the Taliban? Did we randomly blow up Taliban villages because they had POWs? Of course not, because you can't do that.

Somebody (gang, nation, whatever...) having a hostage definitely does not grant a right of doing anything they want that hypothetically may increase the escape/freeing of a hostage.

SooPoo doesn't even think Americans should have civil rights, so why is it not a surprise foreigners should have civil rights as well?

Quote: GenoDRPh

SooPoo doesn't even think Americans should have civil rights, so why is it not a surprise foreigners should have civil rights as well?

I love my civil rights. And am happy you have them to.

The difference between us is simple. I care more about the hostages who are being tortured and their civil rights. You care more about the torturers. Pretty simple.

Quote: SOOPOO

I love my civil rights. And am happy you have them to.

The difference between us is simple. I care more about the hostages who are being tortured and their civil rights. You care more about the torturers. Pretty simple.

I used to put it this way. Guy mugs and hurts somebody bad.

Conservative is concerned for the victim. Liberal yells at the cops about they guy's civil rights as he gets arrested.