Easter Is Coming in 8 Weeks

Quote: Nareed

How can you not get it? I gave a lot of very selfish reasons why it's not selfish to steal.

No, you gave a lot of personal reasons why you selfishly wouldn't steal. To maintain your self-esteem and be proud of yourself for not stealing. This is all very good for you. However, by grounding your morality is selfishness you set yourself up for those who look at this differently. What if they selfishly feel that stealing is good for them, self-esteem and pride be damned? I think we would both agree that if someone said that they would be rationalizing and not really speaking the truth, but by granting them the ability to selfishly determine for themselves weather stealing is good or not you have really painted yourself in a corner that I cannot see a way out for you.

Quote: FrGamble

However, by grounding your morality is selfishness you set yourself up for those who look at this differently.

I know that. You can learn how many obtuse people exist merely by saying what I've said.

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What if they selfishly feel that stealing is good for them, self-esteem and pride be damned?

Though cultural factors matter, the human mind works much the same all over the world, just as human beings walk, eat and eliminate wastes much the same all over the world. The exceptions usually are mentally ill. I'm not saying anyone who disagrees with me is mentally ill, but that it takes a psychopath to feel pride in hurting other people.

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I think we would both agree that if someone said that they would be rationalizing and not really speaking the truth, but by granting them the ability to selfishly determine for themselves weather stealing is good or not you have really painted yourself in a corner that I cannot see a way out for you.

Read above. I neatly outflanked your corner :)

Quote: Nareed

Though cultural factors matter, the human mind works much the same all over the world, just as human beings walk, eat and eliminate wastes much the same all over the world. The exceptions usually are mentally ill. I'm not saying anyone who disagrees with me is mentally ill, but that it takes a psychopath to feel pride in hurting other people.

So our morality comes from some mysterious inner working of the human mind, like universal moral norms that transcend cultures, continents, and centuries. It is something beyond us that, besides the real crazies, has us all thinking pretty much the same thing. Do you still want to call that selfishness? It seems more like a universal moral norm that is beyond us and above any one of us. There is something in us that when we are healthy doesn't want to steal even if we won't get caught and it is to our benefit. There is something in us that is willing to give a kidney to a friend. Your corner just got a little smaller.

Quote: FrGamble

So our morality comes from some mysterious inner working of the human mind, like universal moral norms that transcend cultures, continents, and centuries. .

It's not all that mysterious. We're all connected,
we all came from the same place.

Joe Campbell tells a story of a cop in Hawaii, where
Campbell lived. There was a guy about to jump
off a popular suicide bridge there, and the cop
leaped and grabbed just as he jumped and caught
him on the legs. The jumper took the cop with
him over the side, and the cops partner grabbed
him by his belt in the back just in time and hauled
them up.

Asked later why he was willing to give up his life
to save a stranger, the cop said in that instant he
wasn't a stranger, him and the guy jumping were
one. He felt in saving the jumper he was saving
himself. We're all linked, and just below the
surface we know it. We aren't alone, we aren't
abandoned, we aren't broken. We instinctively
know the golden rule, we instinctively know how
to treat each other. It's just that we allow our
ego to override our instincts sometimes.

Quote: Evenbob

We instinctively
know the golden rule, we instinctively know how
to treat each other. It's just that we allow our
ego to override our instincts sometimes.

This is a really good description of the human dilemma and the reality of original sin.

Quote: FrGamble

So our morality comes from some mysterious inner working of the human mind, like universal moral norms that transcend cultures, continents, and centuries.

That's silly. It's like saying our physiology comes from some mysterious inner working of the human body, which transcends cultures, continents and centuries.

Oh, wait.

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It is something beyond us that, besides the real crazies, has us all thinking pretty much the same thing.

Human bodies, with a few exceptions, share most of their characteristics, so an African doctor can treat an Asian patient without trouble. Yet we don't all look alike, posses the same exact proportions, have the same abilities, etc. So it is with the mind, though culture affects it a lot more than it does the rest of the body.

Therefore we can deduce lots of basic principles of how the human mind works, even without knowing the exact mechanisms involved. This goes on mostly at a qualitative level rather than a quantifiable one. And none of this requires we all think alike, any more than a common physiology requires we all look alike.

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It seems more like a universal moral norm that is beyond us and above any one of us.

How can something inherent to each person be beyond and above all persons?

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Your corner just got a little smaller.

The metaphor breaks down at this point.

Quote: FrGamble

This is a really good description of the human dilemma and the reality of original sin.

There's no dilemma. Sin was invented so a group
of people could hold dominance over another
group. I've said over and over that sin is a very
hard sell to people who never heard of it before.

You aren't selling just that, you have to sell all
the mumbo jumbo that goes with it. The
religious group creates the dilemma where none
existed before. They spread discontentment
wherever they go. For example, the native Hawaiians
were a very happy, loving people till the Church
came along and told them the were dirty naked
sinners and would burn in hell if they didn't change.
Real nice..

Sorry for changing the topic a bit, but this is Easter related.

We all know that after Jesus died some people watching "drew lots" for his clothing. I thought this meant that they drew numbered rocks out of a jar and the highest one won, or something like that. I've always wondered why translations used the term "draw lots" when nobody ever uses the word "lots" in that context except in quoting the bible. So, I looked up that passage, John 19:28, in some more modern translations. Here is what they say:

Quote: Living Bible

But they said, “Let’s not tear up his robe,” for it was seamless. “Let’s throw dice to see who gets it.” This fulfilled the Scripture that says,

Quote: Contemporary English Version

The soldiers said to each other, “Let’s not rip it apart. We will gamble to see who gets it.” This happened so that the Scriptures would come true, which say,...

Quote: God's Word Translation

The soldiers said to each other, “Let’s not rip it apart. Let’s throw dice to see who will get it.” In this way the Scripture came true: ....

I was curious how they translated into Spanish...

Quote: Nueva Versión Internacional

No la dividamos —se dijeron unos a otros—. Echemos suertes para ver a quién le toca.

Y así lo hicieron los soldados. Esto sucedió para que se cumpliera la Escritura que dice:

I'm sure my self esteem will go down ten points if Nareed sees and corrects me on this, but the pertinent part seems to say that they "threw lucks" to see who would get his clothes.

I'd be interested in the opinion of the advanced theologians or Greek experts of DT.

Quote: Wizard

I'm sure my self esteem will go down ten points if Nareed sees and corrects me on this,

One who knows how to build self-esteem also knows how to tear it down ;)

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but the pertinent part seems to say that they "threw lucks" to see who would get his clothes.

That's as good a translation as any (surprise!). If I were translating into English I'd say "Let's draw lots," which we're agreed is archaic.

Now I wonder if the ancients ever flipped coins. "Caesar I win, Jupiter you lose."

Quote: Evenbob

There's no dilemma.

Of all the falsehoods and exaggerations you have written this might be the greatest.