How often do you fly on Business or First Class

Quote: Nareed

I'm becoming interested in all-business class small and mid-size planes used for trips from NYC to London or Paris.

The idea of servicing London City airport (as does British Airways 001 and 002) from across the Atlantic with all business class planes is intriguing. Perhaps in the future you will be able to completely purchase a bypass of security, or they might sell such flights out of Teterboro. Teterboro Airport is a tiny airport only a few miles west of the George Washington Bridge, and bills itself as New York's tiny 4th airport. But such flights are a tiny sideshow.

For me, the issue of alarm is that 21st route from JFK to LHR on Kuwait Airlines. This flight is one of those 5th freedom flights that originate in Kuwait, flies through Heathrow and on to JFK. But the primary reason for it's existence is to sell upmarket seats from LHR to JFK. Kuwait tried to refuse a ticket to someone with an Israeli passport


Frankly, I am surprised that there are still 3 B767s on that route. I guess they are on American Airlines.

I think that Emirates will make a stab at this route. Every plane that goes to London now is an A380.

Quote: Pacomartin

The idea of servicing London City airport (as does British Airways 001 and 002) from across the Atlantic with all business class planes is intriguing. Perhaps in the future you will be able to completely purchase a bypass of security, or they might sell such flights out of Teterboro.

When Toluca turned back into a small airport recently, it also became much more pleasant to fly out of. You get the same levels of security, customs and immigration as on MEX, but the lines are much shorter.

Quote:

Kuwait tried to refuse a ticket to someone with an Israeli passport

If he tried to purchase it in the US, I'm pretty sure he can sue.

Quote:

Frankly, I am surprised that there are still 3 B767s on that route. I guess they are on American Airlines.

What would you have the airlines do with their 767s? Park them in the desert?

Do you know the 757 and 767 have identical cockpits and controls? Pilots certified in one can fly the other without further certification or training.

BTW, I think your chart is missing La Compagnie's 757.

Quote: Nareed

If he tried to purchase it in the US, I'm pretty sure he can sue.
What would you have the airlines do with their 767s? Park them in the desert?
Do you know the 757 and 767 have identical cockpits and controls? Pilots certified in one can fly the other without further certification or training.
BTW, I think your chart is missing La Compagnie's 757.

The FAA ordered Kuwait Airlines to sell him a ticket or lose their fifth freedom rights.

I don't think they should retire their B767's. I think they should put them on less prominent routes.

This is the busiest Transatlantic route and you should compete with newer planes with more seats. Both airports have crowded runways.

Yes I did know they have identical cockpits. It was a big selling point.

La Compagnie flies into Newark airport. That infographic is for JFK-LHR only.

Quote: Pacomartin

The FAA ordered Kuwait Airlines to sell him a ticket or lose their fifth freedom rights.

Whenever I read about the Middle East airlines, I wonder whether they have any Jewish employees at all anywhere in their very large network.

Quote:

I don't think they should retire their B767's. I think they should put them on less prominent routes.

I suppose they either don't have the larger planes to replace them or do well enough with the 767s. Quick from Asimov "I figure people do what they do either because they want to or they must."

Quote:

La Compagnie flies into Newark airport. That infographic is for JFK-LHR only.

Ah. I should have known that.

Quote: Nareed

Quick from Asimov "I figure people do what they do either because they want to or they must."

I suppose. But you would hardly notice that worldwide air traffic has doubled since 9-11. The USA fleets are so old .


American Airlines widebodies
84 Boeing 757 19.4 years (will be used on international flights only)
56 Boeing 767 21.1 years (retire all but 25 planes next year)

64 Boeing 777 11.2 years
6 Boeing 787 0.4 years
24 Airbus A330 7.9 years

Quote: Pacomartin

I suppose. But you would hardly notice that worldwide air traffic has doubled since 9-11. The USA fleets are so old .

I fail to see the connection between traffic and a fleet's age. Yes, some newer planes are bigger, but not all.

Interjet has a rather young fleet, seeing as none of their airplanes are over 10 years of operational age. But all their A320s carry exactly 150 passengers regardless of age. Nor do they seem interested in the larger A321. On the contrary, they added the smaller Superjet to their fleet.

I went online yesterday to check on fares MEX-LHR/London on business class.

What I'd really like to know is who has $5,300 to $6,200 to blow on a 10-15 hour trip. I have to assume the vast majority get upgrades through frequent flier miles.

Next, the nonstop flights were far more expensive. The cheapest, at $5,300 was a one-stop flight MEX-Toronto-LHR on Air Canada, the first leg also on business but in an A-320. I didn't check to see whether the first leg also included lie-flat seats. More curious was an offering from Avianca, with a stop in Bogota for about $5,700 or so, using an A-330 on both legs.

There are two non-stops, Aeromexico at over $6,100 and BA at a ridiculous $8,000+ (it may be an artifact of the dates I chose at random).

Knowing the costs does help a little. When reading about what business class passengers get, and what they expect, I'm more inclined to think they're merely trying to get their full money's worth. And, yes, asking for $19.99 on top of that for in-flight internet is perhaps a bit too much.

I doubt I'd ever pay that much. I'd rather invest on sleeping pills.

Quote: Nareed

I went online yesterday to check on fares MEX-LHR/London on business class.

Aeromexico recently upgrades MEX-London to five weekly flights. Aeromexico initially launched in Dec-2012 with three weekly flights. Aeromexico initially increased capacity to London in first half of 2014 as it transitioned the three flights to the 787 in phases. The fourth frequency to London was introduced at the end of Mar-2015 and the fifth flight was introduced in mid-Jun-2015. Aeromexico’s share of the non-stop capacity between Mexico City and London has increased over the last year from 28% in Jul-2014 to 36% in Jul-2015. British Airways, which currently operates a daily 747-400 flight to Mexico City, accounts for the remaining 64% share of seat capacity.

With five 787 flights Aeromexico believes it has now sufficient schedule and the right product to compete for corporate traffic, which is particularly important in the London market.

Aeromexico has shown little interest in returning to Frankfurt, Rome or Barcelona (former destinations). It is more profitable to increase frequency to Madrid, Paris and London to serve business customers.

Aeromexico plans non-stops Mexico City-Tokyo
Aeromexico formerly routed it's outbound flights to Tokyo via Tijuana to try and capture some of the San Diego traffic. With SAN now having it's own nonstop to Tokyo, Aeromexico saw the profitability of its Tokyo service improve by about USD8 million per year after it switched the stopover from Tijuana to Monterrey in Sep-2014. Monterrey-Tokyo has a sizeable local market, thanks to the ties between the Japanese and Mexican automotive industry, which has several facilities in the Monterrey area.

While Monterrey passengers will no longer have a non-stop option to Tokyo Aeromexico believes it will still be able to carry these passengers via Mexico City. Aeromexico competes mainly against US carriers in the Japan-Mexico market but transiting in the US is cumbersome and Mexican passengers would generally prefer transiting in Mexico City.

Aeromexico has been waiting for over two years for the long promised improvement in take-off thrust of the Dreamliner, which is necessary for non-stops with full payload to Tokyo from the high altitude of Mexico City. The thrust upgrade finally became available in Jun-2015, enabling Aeromexico to start retrofitting its existing fleet. But Aeromexico wants to wait until it has five aircraft upgraded before making the switch to non-stops in December 2015.

A non-stop in both directions is expected to improve demand, including from connecting markets beyond Mexico City, and eventually enable Aeromexico to add additional frequencies to Tokyo. Aeromexico over the last year has been bolstering its operation to regional international destinations in Central America in a bid to bolster transit traffic. The additional feed should facilitate expansion of Aeromexico’s long-haul network including potentially more frequencies to Tokyo and Shanghai

Aeromexico plans more connections to Central America and South America
Copa has been the dominant airline between Mexico and Central America, having nearly double the share of AeroMexico. Aeromexico says 31% of its Mexico City passengers now connect beyond Mexico City, compared to only about 15% three or four years ago. Aeromexico aims to further increase its transit component to the higher 30%s by offering good connections from Tokyo, Shanghai and Europe. Copa has no widebodies in it's fleet.

I went on Expedia yesterday and looked up some fares using randoms dates (but the same dates for all). Here's what I found for JFK-LAX:

Basic Economy flights round trip run about $380 to $500.

Economy plus range is about $890 to $1,200

Business goes from $1,300 to $1,900 on Jet Blue. If we include other options, the range goes up to $3,450 or so
(all numbers are rounded up and outrageous options are excluded).

Let's set a median for economy at $440 and economy plus at $1,050.

I don't know about you, but I find that depressing. Economy plus is what economy used to be in the 80s. Decent legroom, in-flight meal and in-flight entertainment (though not priority boarding, and I grant the available entertainment back then was mediocre and cost an extra $2 for what passed for headphones).

Jet Blue's business class is called Mint. In the typical A321, they have to exchange 47 regular economy seats for 16 Mint seats. That's nearly a 3:1 ratio. And that's about the lowest-priced business class route with lie flat seats there is.

The bottom line is economy will reach bottom sometime soon on many airlines. Not in all. A few will offer something better, be it free bags or more room or free entertainment. At the same time Business class gets more elaborate on longer routes. First class is more a priority for the longest haul flights, mostly, for airlines such as Singapore, the Mideast lines and a few other sin Asia. Not so much for US or European ones (I don't see AF, BA, LH, AA, etc ever putting a shower in a wide body, for example, or a private apartment).

Quote: Nareed

I don't know about you, but I find that depressing. Economy plus is what economy used to be in the 80s. Decent legroom, in-flight meal and in-flight entertainment (though not priority boarding, and I grant the available entertainment back then was mediocre and cost an extra $2 for what passed for headphones).

I got a note from someone today. She was trying to get from Dallas to Monterrey MX not on business. Now a greyhound bus is cheap but it's about 12-13 hours. She thought about flying American from DFW but it was expensive. Someone suggested that she drive the 4 hours to San Antonio and take Interjet to Monterrey. She said it was cheaper by $500 than American.

But she was nervous as she had never flown a foreign airline in her life. I said I had never flown Interjet, but it sounded wonderful and my friend Nareed said they use it all the time for business. Now she is excited and is a lot less upset about the 4 hour drive. I did tell her that it was like Economy Plus (which she had never been on).

Sometimes I wonder if Canada-USA-Mexico should open up all domestic routes to airlines from each other's countries. Airlines are heavily invested in each other anyway. Delta owns a big piece of Aeromexico, Ryan Air owns a chunk of Viva Aerobus, and Aviance in Colombia owns a big share of Volaris. In Europe most of the airlines are owned by other airline conglomerates (Etihad owns 49% of Alitalia, British Airways owns Iberia).

At first I thought that Canada and Mexico would resist as they would be afraid of being overwhelmed by USA airlines. USA airlines controls most of the traffic between the Mexico and USA (largely because of the resort traffic). Now sometimes I think it would be the USA airlines that would have to be afraid.