Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Nareed

The problem when you buy into the Christian philosophy of original sin and fallen humanity, is that you do not really believe humanity has any capacity for good that's not dependent on a made-up, McGuffin entity.

That's how come they need to hijack all history. Why they need to believe any good before Jesus was somehow inspired a by a god nobody even knew about.

One gets the feeling that even paragons of Christian virtue would be out shooting heroine, raping women and stealing everything that's not bolted down, but refrain only because a non-existent entity tells them to.

WOW, I am amazed that still there is so much misunderstanding of the doctrine of original sin?!? It is the philosophy that humanity is good at its core and weakened or fallen by pride. Therefore it explains very well why even without God as present in peoples lives they can still live a naturally good life following the dictates of their conscience. We are all created in the image and likeness of God. Human beings are amazing and at our core we are good, that is how we are made. However, we have also inherited a desire to kill God and stand in His place. It is a perversion of our freedom and the ultimate fulfillment of our hubris, but it is a temptation we can resist and it is a life we can always turn away from when we discover that it only leads to hurt and pain for us and others. To put it into Star Wars terms we are born good but with a temptation to the dark side.

Quote: FrGamble

So is there a material component to consciousness? Can you point to something that makes a material thing start to wiggle flagellum or have a heart beat or create thought?

Yes, it is your brain.

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That is your opinion in regards to what strategy is successful for the survival of the species. It seems to me you could make a strong logical argument that the survival of the species should be more based on the animal world, they have been pretty successful at it until we came around. The problem is we are radical different than the animals and we think differently and we have a morality that doesn't follow the playbook of the survival of the species we see all around us.

I am pointing out that there are different successful survival strategies. In the animal world, there are examples of social groups forming for the benefit of mutual survival. I don't think that we are radically different from the other animals at all.

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You are incorrect. To make a positive truth statement as in regards to if something exists or not you should have evidence. You also have to remember these decisions are made taking everything into account and looking at what is more probable and where does the convergence of evidence point to. Nevertheless, do you have any evidence to disprove the existence of God?

It only takes one piece of proof to disprove a mountain of contrary evidence. That is why you can't simply "keep score" of the quantities of evidences to use as proof.
You are falling into logical fallacies again. Do you have any evidence to disprove the existence of Zeus?

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Yes we have and the discussion comes back around again to what we consider as the definition of slavery. The Bible condemns and so does the Church what we would consider racial slavery.

I wish you would stop bringing "racial" slavery into this.
Genesis teaches us that it is ok to punish someone by taking their son and making him a slave. There are many examples in the bible where it is ok to enslave the people of a country who were captured in war. Is this not slavery? It certainly isn't racial slavery. Is it ok now? Would we have been morally justified in taking and enslaving the women and children of Iraq after the gulf war?

Quote: Dalex64

Yes, it is your brain.

How can your material brain give you a consciousness and wonder and the ability to transcend the material world? How did the phenomenon of life first happen with organisms without brains that began to move and then eventually think, etc.? It is quite fascinating and in humanity I think it cannot be explained just by pointing to the brain.

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I am pointing out that there are different successful survival strategies. In the animal world, there are examples of social groups forming for the benefit of mutual survival. I don't think that we are radically different from the other animals at all.

Look again at humanity and how the best of us strive to heroically care for the least and how we strive to eliminate discrimination based on gender and different races and how we all desire to help feed and care for the poor and needy. We are radically different from the other animals.

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It only takes one piece of proof to disprove a mountain of contrary evidence. That is why you can't simply "keep score" of the quantities of evidences to use as proof.

Sure you can find the smoking gun so to speak. However, even then the mountain of contrary evidence could explain that or not. Nevertheless you need to both find the smoking gun and with or without it deal with the mountain of evidence that leads one to the correct decision.

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You are falling into logical fallacies again. Do you have any evidence to disprove the existence of Zeus?

The same as used to disprove the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. There is not historical evidence of the existence of any of them, there is no thinking adults who believe such things, there stories are physically and scientifically impossible, they provide no meaningful contribution to the answers of the mystery of life, parents have been videotaped putting money under pillows and gifts under trees, etc., etc.

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Is this not slavery? It certainly isn't racial slavery. Is it ok now? Would we have been morally justified in taking and enslaving the women and children of Iraq after the gulf war?

I think you began to answer your own question. There are forms of slavery that we allow but of course do not use the term. For example imprisoning someone for their crimes. That is ok, I assume you would agree. I would add we need to focus on rehabilitation, but that is a different thread. Of course it would not be morally justified in taking and enslaving the women and children of Iraq, what do you think this is 100 BC or something?

Did you miss the part about enslaving someone's SON for the crimes of the FATHER?

P.S. please try to focus on disproving Zeus, not Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Yes, I conveniently forgot about that. There are people who I think would hold still today to that older notion that the son needs to pay for the sins of the father. However, Jesus Christ clearly teaches that this is not the case. Again remember the pedagogy of God and evolution of justice that slowly marches towards the love of Jesus Christ.

P.S. Most of what I said earlier can be applied to Zeus as well except for the part of videotaping because that wasn't around at the time.

Good news, everyone!

All we have to do is convince thinking people that the stories and miracles in the bible are scientifically and physically impossible, and God will cease to exist!

I'm afraid that this is not the smoking gun you are looking for and remember that just like there is a mountain of evidence supporting the existence of God there may be a molehill of evidence that points to His non-existence. You need to ask yourself which is more probable?

But don't let me damper your spirits by all means go ahead and give it a try.

I'm not trying to disprove God right now, I'm trying to get you to disprove Zeus.

Quote: FrGamble

WOW, I am amazed that still there is so much misunderstanding of the doctrine of original sin?!?

I don't try to get to the bottom of the Prime Directive, either.

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It is the philosophy that humanity is good at its core and weakened or fallen by pride.

No, it's not. it's the doctrine that humanity was made good by Jehovah, and then the rest. Without divine intervention, literally, your doctrine holds we'd be no better than animals. Worse, really, as animals are, with few exceptions(*), amoral.


(*) Like dogs.

Here, let me help you out some - I found this on several christian sites:

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(1) A being that owes its existence to other beings cannot be the being than
which none greater can be conceived.
(2) Zeus owes his existence to other beings.(greeks)
(3) Therefore, Zeus cannot be the being than which none greater can be
conceived.

Unfortunately, this argument has several flaws
It is showing how Zeus can not be the first or greatest god, not that Zeus doesn't exist
The premise in #2 overlooks the possibility that the greeks didn't invent Zeus, but instead discovered him through revelation.