Simple question?
Thread Rating:
March 2nd, 2016 at 9:19:08 PM permalink | |
Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 | I believe I previously quoted bible verses about the acceptable length of hair for men and women. I believe it was in 1 Corinthians, near the instructions that women were to be veiled while praying, and silent in church. Or was that just advice? It was church law at one point: http://people.opposingviews.com/catholic-church-hair-covering-etiquette-2970.html Why the two changes, to make it law, then repeal the law? I can't find the page earlier that talked about hair color, it may have been "conservative christian" and not catholic. And again, I was pointing out that you should not make sweeping statements that we should not put chemicals and devices into our bodies, since clearly we do these things and your church supports it. Fertility is not a problem, but empowering (married, if you like) women to choose when to have a child and the freedom to have sex (with her husband, if you like) when she wants is what you give up and put at risk by limiting birth control options to NFP. What's so unnatural about the withdrawal method? And back to condoms, a subject which you appear to be avoiding. The two most recent popes have authorized the use of condoms for the purpose of limiting the spread of disease. We can even pretend they were only talking about married people, if you like. A side effect of using condoms to prevent the spread of disease is of course preventing pregnancy. As it has been pointed out now many times before, there are several legitimate medical reasons to be on the birth control pill besides preventing pregnancy. When on the pill for one of those reasons, pregnancy is also prevented. Still, it isn't worth going back and forth about what is natural or artificial, especially since it is really about what the church considers to be moral behavior, and all this talk about 'unnatural means' is just labeling something as bad in order to support the original moral opinion. I think married people should be able to use whatever birth control method they want to prevent an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy.
How does NFP and the decision to not have any more children and only have sex when a woman is not fertile not render procreation impossible? Since condoms and birth control pills are not 100% effective and therefore do not render procreation impossible, just unlikely, how is it considered contraception under this definition? "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
March 2nd, 2016 at 9:19:59 PM permalink | |
Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 | Pope Paul VI allowed nuns in danger of rape in the then-Belgian Congo (now the Democratic Republic of the Congo) to use birth control to prevent pregnancies. Members of the Church later used that decision to justify allowing women to use contraceptives while at risk of assault in war zones. (From another website) The church believes contraception is evil. Contraception has been around since at least 1900BC - search wikipedia for a list of methods used. Contraception as was pointed out before isn't prohibited in the bible, wasn't among the teachings of jesus, the gospels of the apostles, the various letters, etc. It is also an "Infallible" doctrine, which I have pointed out really ties the hands of the church, making it very difficult for the church to change, even if it wands to, such that it appears extraordinary when three popes authorize the use of a birth control device, in one case specifically to prevent pregnancy.
(That quote and the opening quote from https://fusion.net/story/270460/why-does-the-catholic-church-oppose-contraception-birth-control/ ) So it seems that they can, almost, redefine and reevaluate what is moral and evil and a sin. Maybe someday they will - but as people on other websites have pointed out - they fear any reversals of infallible decisions would cast all of them into doubt. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
March 2nd, 2016 at 9:48:14 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
Nobody cares except those running the Church. 90% of Catholics no longer go to Church on anything like a regular basis, and 90% of the women use whatever birth control they like. The Church is irrelevant in the lives of most Catholics. Every single person in my wife's fam goes to church every Sunday. All the kids, all the parents and grand kids. My wife takes he elderly parents. They go out of habit, they go out of fear of being shunned. My wife's cousin got a divorce 15 years ago and the family shunned her for 10 years. She got kicked off the board of her church. Her husband too. He had to leave town because he lost all of his Christian friends. Cults. Gotta love em cause you sure can't leave em.. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
March 2nd, 2016 at 10:17:14 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | I was very happy to see that you quoted the prophetic document of Paul VI, Humane Vitae. I was however disappointed that it doesn't seem like you read it. The answers to your questions can be found there. Why does the Church not consider NFP the same thing as artificial contraception when they both attempt to render procreation impossible?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
March 2nd, 2016 at 10:32:57 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I know Pope Francis has recently used this example about the nuns in the Congo. However, it seems that no one has been able to find a shred of evidence that this actually happened and that it was allowed. You mentioned something earlier about condoms and even suggested that other Popes have said they are okay with it. In those cases it clearly was when it was obvious that it was in order to mitigate the consequences of those already choosing to act immorally, and one was involving a discussion about male prostitutes. As I mentioned in response to your analogy with gun control it is best to first and foremost form and educate people so that there is not a need to ban guns or contraceptives. However, in the case where people have made up their minds they are going to shoot someone you might want to give them rubber bullets. This is not a solution of course. In regards to your statements of infallibility. It almost seems as if you are saying the Church would love to change this teaching but is hamstrung by Paul VI and others teaching infallibly about the issue. The truth is that reason and faith show us perfectly correct about this subject. Also the experience of the world since the widespread use of contraception. Look at what Paul VI predicted would happen and see if he was not exactly spot on. Many people, even those who have no faith, are coming around to the obvious notion that these artificial means are not only bad for women, but bad for relationships in general. There is also a growing movement for natural things and a healthy respect for the workings of our body. Nareed joked about the only difference between organic and normal produce is price. People also recognize that there is also a difference in no pesticides, chemicals, and a growing process that is better for the environment. If our culture wasn't cramming recreational sex down our throats at every opportunity NFP would be the natural choice of far more people, Catholic and not. Speaking of Catholics, you are correct the number of Catholics who practice artificial birth control is pretty much the same as the general population. It is a good thing such stuff is not up for a vote or ruled by what the majority may want. Lately, I've lost a lot of faith in democracy and I sure am glad we don't vote on whether we think something is morally right or wrong. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
March 2nd, 2016 at 10:38:01 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
This is a good time to remember that 67% of all statistics are completed fabricated.
Do you ever think this might be the real problem here and not blame Christianity for their difficulties. You basically are admitting they don't really believe it but just go through the motions based on fear. They you blame their poor behavior on a faith they don't even believe. If anything it is their secular religion of popularity and looking good above all that seems to motivate them, not Christianity and Jesus who welcomed and ate with sinners. As I've told you many times before I really wish you knew better Christians, so many of your problems would be solved. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
March 2nd, 2016 at 11:09:21 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
No no no no no. They believe it 110%. They don't miss church out of fear. They kids don't screw around out of fear. They don't want to be shunned, it kind of ruins your life. They don't want to be kicked out of the community. It's a horrible experience when your family and friends stop speaking to you and avoid you on the street. What you have to ask is why Catholics stay away from Church and confession. Why Catholic girls are so promiscuous. Why is it they aren't afraid like Evangelicals are. I'll tell you why. The Catholic parents are lax with their kids religious training. The Evangelicals are not. Everything in their lives revolves around teaching the kids how to live in a Christian community. Like they guy in the article said, Catholics don't have that sense of community when they enter college, they never had it at home, why would they. You, as a priest, can teach it, but if the parents aren't reinforcing it, it's not going to stick. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
March 3rd, 2016 at 12:34:56 AM permalink | |
rxwine Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 189 Posts: 18831 |
Read more: Billy Joel - Only The Good Die Young Lyrics | MetroLyrics You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really? |
March 3rd, 2016 at 3:29:40 AM permalink | |
rxwine Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 189 Posts: 18831 | Mark Twain wrote much of the "Letter's from the Earth" during the time of both his daughter and wife's death. He was definitely not happy with Christianity.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really? |
March 3rd, 2016 at 5:42:56 AM permalink | |
Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 | Re: Humane Vitae Just because it is written it does not mean: He is right The reasoning is sound The reasoning is logical I personally disagree with many of the opinions presented there, and the logic and reasoning behind them. It does not explain the logical reasons behind the reasons for banning condoms. I think we should stick to discussing this as if it were always between two married people for now. The reasoning seems to be: they want to ban birth control, so pick a method of birth control and then come up with a reason to declare it immoral. Regarding infallibility, yes, I think there are things that the church would like to change that they can not because of infallibility. I think that there is a good chance that this is one of those issues. The opinions of the masses surely aren't completely unrepresented by the leadership of the church. There must be some of them who believe the same thing, but are unable or unwilling to act. The recommendation from that one council about embracing birth control after discussing the pill is an example of this. Regarding condom use: one of the popes never said it? Ok, that is worth further pursuit. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |