Simple question?

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March 2nd, 2016 at 9:19:08 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
I believe I previously quoted bible verses about the acceptable length of hair for men and women. I believe it was in 1 Corinthians, near the instructions that women were to be veiled while praying, and silent in church. Or was that just advice?

It was church law at one point:
http://people.opposingviews.com/catholic-church-hair-covering-etiquette-2970.html
Why the two changes, to make it law, then repeal the law?

I can't find the page earlier that talked about hair color, it may have been "conservative christian" and not catholic.

And again, I was pointing out that you should not make sweeping statements that we should not put chemicals and devices into our bodies, since clearly we do these things and your church supports it.

Fertility is not a problem, but empowering (married, if you like) women to choose when to have a child and the freedom to have sex (with her husband, if you like) when she wants is what you give up and put at risk by limiting birth control options to NFP.

What's so unnatural about the withdrawal method?

And back to condoms, a subject which you appear to be avoiding.
The two most recent popes have authorized the use of condoms for the purpose of limiting the spread of disease. We can even pretend they were only talking about married people, if you like.
A side effect of using condoms to prevent the spread of disease is of course preventing pregnancy.

As it has been pointed out now many times before, there are several legitimate medical reasons to be on the birth control pill besides preventing pregnancy. When on the pill for one of those reasons, pregnancy is also prevented.

Still, it isn't worth going back and forth about what is natural or artificial, especially since it is really about what the church considers to be moral behavior, and all this talk about 'unnatural means' is just labeling something as bad in order to support the original moral opinion.

I think married people should be able to use whatever birth control method they want to prevent an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy.

Quote:
Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal
act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of
its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to
render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14).


How does NFP and the decision to not have any more children and only have sex when a woman is not fertile not render procreation impossible?

Since condoms and birth control pills are not 100% effective and therefore do not render procreation impossible, just unlikely, how is it considered contraception under this definition?
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
March 2nd, 2016 at 9:19:59 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Pope Paul VI allowed nuns in danger of rape
in the then-Belgian Congo (now the Democratic Republic of the
Congo) to use birth control to prevent pregnancies. Members of the
Church later used that decision to justify allowing women to use
contraceptives while at risk of assault in war zones. (From another website)

The church believes contraception is evil. Contraception has been around since at least 1900BC - search wikipedia for a list of methods used. Contraception as was pointed out before isn't prohibited in the bible, wasn't among the teachings of jesus, the gospels of the apostles, the various letters, etc.

It is also an "Infallible" doctrine, which I have pointed out really ties the hands of the church, making it very difficult for the church to change, even if it wands to, such that it appears extraordinary when three popes authorize the use of a birth control device, in one case specifically to prevent pregnancy.

Quote:
in 1963, when hormonal birth control came along, the Catholic Church convened a papal commission on marriage and reproduction
to review its position on contraception—and the commission
concluded that the Church should actually embrace it


(That quote and the opening quote from https://fusion.net/story/270460/why-does-the-catholic-church-oppose-contraception-birth-control/ )

So it seems that they can, almost, redefine and reevaluate what is moral and evil and a sin. Maybe someday they will - but as people on other websites have pointed out - they fear any reversals of infallible decisions would cast all of them into doubt.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
March 2nd, 2016 at 9:48:14 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25013
Quote: Dalex64
- they fear any reversals of infallible decisions would cast all of them into doubt.


Nobody cares except those running the
Church. 90% of Catholics no longer
go to Church on anything like a
regular basis, and 90% of the women
use whatever birth control they like.
The Church is irrelevant in the lives
of most Catholics.

Every single person in my wife's fam
goes to church every Sunday. All
the kids, all the parents and grand
kids. My wife takes he elderly parents.
They go out of habit, they go out
of fear of being shunned. My wife's
cousin got a divorce 15 years ago
and the family shunned her for 10
years. She got kicked off the board
of her church. Her husband too. He
had to leave town because he lost
all of his Christian friends.

Cults. Gotta love em cause you sure
can't leave em..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
March 2nd, 2016 at 10:17:14 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
I was very happy to see that you quoted the prophetic document of Paul VI, Humane Vitae. I was however disappointed that it doesn't seem like you read it. The answers to your questions can be found there.

Why does the Church not consider NFP the same thing as artificial contraception when they both attempt to render procreation impossible?

Quote: Humane Vitae
16. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church concerning the moral laws governing marriage, that human intelligence has both the right and responsibility to control those forces of irrational nature which come within its ambit and to direct them toward ends beneficial to man. Others ask on the same point whether it is not reasonable in so many cases to use artificial birth control if by so doing the harmony and peace of a family are better served and more suitable conditions are provided for the education of children already born. To this question We must give a clear reply. The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.

If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
March 2nd, 2016 at 10:32:57 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
Pope Paul VI allowed nuns in danger of rape
in the then-Belgian Congo (now the Democratic Republic of the
Congo) to use birth control to prevent pregnancies. Members of the
Church later used that decision to justify allowing women to use
contraceptives while at risk of assault in war zones. (From another website)


I know Pope Francis has recently used this example about the nuns in the Congo. However, it seems that no one has been able to find a shred of evidence that this actually happened and that it was allowed.

You mentioned something earlier about condoms and even suggested that other Popes have said they are okay with it. In those cases it clearly was when it was obvious that it was in order to mitigate the consequences of those already choosing to act immorally, and one was involving a discussion about male prostitutes. As I mentioned in response to your analogy with gun control it is best to first and foremost form and educate people so that there is not a need to ban guns or contraceptives. However, in the case where people have made up their minds they are going to shoot someone you might want to give them rubber bullets. This is not a solution of course.

In regards to your statements of infallibility. It almost seems as if you are saying the Church would love to change this teaching but is hamstrung by Paul VI and others teaching infallibly about the issue. The truth is that reason and faith show us perfectly correct about this subject. Also the experience of the world since the widespread use of contraception. Look at what Paul VI predicted would happen and see if he was not exactly spot on. Many people, even those who have no faith, are coming around to the obvious notion that these artificial means are not only bad for women, but bad for relationships in general. There is also a growing movement for natural things and a healthy respect for the workings of our body. Nareed joked about the only difference between organic and normal produce is price. People also recognize that there is also a difference in no pesticides, chemicals, and a growing process that is better for the environment. If our culture wasn't cramming recreational sex down our throats at every opportunity NFP would be the natural choice of far more people, Catholic and not.

Speaking of Catholics, you are correct the number of Catholics who practice artificial birth control is pretty much the same as the general population. It is a good thing such stuff is not up for a vote or ruled by what the majority may want. Lately, I've lost a lot of faith in democracy and I sure am glad we don't vote on whether we think something is morally right or wrong.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
March 2nd, 2016 at 10:38:01 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Nobody cares except those running the
Church. 90% of Catholics no longer
go to Church on anything like a
regular basis,


This is a good time to remember that 67% of all statistics are completed fabricated.

Quote:
Every single person in my wife's fam
goes to church every Sunday....
They go out of habit, they go out
of fear of being shunned...


Do you ever think this might be the real problem here and not blame Christianity for their difficulties. You basically are admitting they don't really believe it but just go through the motions based on fear. They you blame their poor behavior on a faith they don't even believe. If anything it is their secular religion of popularity and looking good above all that seems to motivate them, not Christianity and Jesus who welcomed and ate with sinners. As I've told you many times before I really wish you knew better Christians, so many of your problems would be solved.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
March 2nd, 2016 at 11:09:21 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25013
Quote: FrGamble
You basically are admitting they don't really believe it .


No no no no no. They believe it 110%. They
don't miss church out of fear. They kids
don't screw around out of fear. They don't
want to be shunned, it kind of ruins your
life. They don't want to be kicked out of
the community. It's a horrible experience
when your family and friends stop speaking
to you and avoid you on the street.

What you have to ask is why Catholics stay
away from Church and confession. Why
Catholic girls are so promiscuous. Why
is it they aren't afraid like Evangelicals
are. I'll tell you why. The Catholic parents
are lax with their kids religious training.
The Evangelicals are not. Everything in
their lives revolves around teaching the
kids how to live in a Christian community.

Like they guy in the article said, Catholics
don't have that sense of community when
they enter college, they never had it at
home, why would they. You, as a priest,
can teach it, but if the parents aren't
reinforcing it, it's not going to stick.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
March 3rd, 2016 at 12:34:56 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 189
Posts: 18831
Quote:
You got a nice white dress and a party on your confirmation
You got a brand new soul
Mmm, and a cross of gold
But Virginia they didn't give you quite enough information
You didn't count on me
When you were counting on your rosary

They say there's a heaven for those who will wait
Some say it's better but I say it ain't
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
The sinners are much more fun


Read more: Billy Joel - Only The Good Die Young Lyrics | MetroLyrics
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
March 3rd, 2016 at 3:29:40 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 189
Posts: 18831
Mark Twain wrote much of the "Letter's from the Earth" during the time of both his daughter and wife's death. He was definitely not happy with Christianity.

Quote:
The Creator sat upon the throne, thinking. Behind him stretched the illimitable continent of heaven, steeped in a glory of light and color; before him rose the black night of Space, like a wall. His mighty bulk towered rugged and mountain-like into the zenith, and His divine head blazed there like a distant sun.

In time, the Deity perceived that death was a mistake; a mistake, in that it was insufficient; insufficient, for the reason that while it was an admirable agent for the inflicting of misery upon the survivor, it allowed the dead person himself to escape from all further persecution in the blessed refuge of the grave. This was not satisfactory. A way must be conceived to pursue the dead beyond the tomb.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
March 3rd, 2016 at 5:42:56 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Re: Humane Vitae

Just because it is written it does not mean:
He is right
The reasoning is sound
The reasoning is logical

I personally disagree with many of the opinions presented there, and the logic and reasoning behind them.

It does not explain the logical reasons behind the reasons for banning condoms. I think we should stick to discussing this as if it were always between two married people for now. The reasoning seems to be: they want to ban birth control, so pick a method of birth control and then come up with a reason to declare it immoral.

Regarding infallibility, yes, I think there are things that the church would like to change that they can not because of infallibility. I think that there is a good chance that this is one of those issues. The opinions of the masses surely aren't completely unrepresented by the leadership of the church. There must be some of them who believe the same thing, but are unable or unwilling to act. The recommendation from that one council about embracing birth control after discussing the pill is an example of this.

Regarding condom use: one of the popes never said it? Ok, that is worth further pursuit.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan