Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

beauty of married life and the gift of sex. The ban of

It infuriates me when you say nonsense like
this. Sex is NOT a gift, that's ridiculous. It's
a function for reproduction. Just like a
bowel movement is a function for getting
rid of waste. Is that a gift too in your world?

Marriage is lots of things, beautiful it's not.
This is why the Church has so many problems
with sex and marriage among it's members.
It presents unrealistic expectations and nobody
lives up to them.

I could never understand why Al Bundy never
wanted to have sex with his hot wife. It's because
I hadn't been married for 20 years yet. I completely
understand it now.

Quote: Evenbob

It's how you'll eventually get to atheism
if you go on long enough.

If you would really start questioning your beliefs I can guarantee you that you will at least soften your stance and then God will take care of the rest.

Quote: FrGamble

If you would really start questioning your beliefs I can guarantee you that you will at least soften your stance and then God will take care of the rest.

Most atheists got to where they are
by questioning gods existence. My
old ex priest friend was once where
you are today, doing everything
you're doing. He eventually came to
see it as nonsense and woke up out
of his brainwashed daze, and went on
to lead a productive happy life.

Quote: FrGamble

I have not and promise to never do this. Questioning God is how I came to faith and how I think ever saint and believer grows in their faith.

Remember saying something like "Do you know better than the being who created you?",?

That seems like indignation to me. I concede it may not be, but the end result is the same: if "God" says something, then it is so, and human opinion, experience, knowledge, science and philosophy count not.

Also every answer you provide comes down to "Jesus/God." With a strange obsession over "natural" when it suits you.

BTW:

Enrico Fermi dies and goes to heaven. He meets "God" who asks him if he has any questions.

Fermi says "I do. Why is the mass of the electron such a ridiculous ratio to that of the proton? Every idea I and others have brought up to explain it is wrong."

"God" replies "Here," and hands him a small book. "this contains the answer couched in terms of quantum mechanics."

Fermi quickly reads the book, throws it away in disgusts and says "Still wrong!"


***

To "get" the joke it might help to know Fermi's nickname was "The Pope." Why? Because he was infallible as far as physics went.

Quote: FrGamble

In the Church's idea of marriage this is definitely a necessary part of marriage. This doesn't mean of course that the couple will necessarily be blessed with the gift of children. It doesn't even mean that the be physically capable of having children, in the case of an older couple or a couple that is infertile. It also doesn't mean that the couple agrees to start having babies right away. It simply means that they are open to the possibility of new life. After all there is precedent for miraculous births.

an amazing condition, that it is ok for a marriage to be open to the possibility of children by relying on a miracle to provide conception. Isn't going against the slim odds of pregnancy when multiple simultaneous methods of birth control are in use also a miracle and gods will? If god wants someone to miraculously become pregnant, surely no minor inconvenience like contraception or a post-menopausal woman could stand in his way.

Quote:

Yes in a perfect world and in a healthy couple any form of family planning will be agreed upon an discussed. However, practically once a woman goes on the pill then the discussion kind of ends and it is not talked about much after that. If using condoms then the man can just strap up when he desires sex. If natural family planning is used then the couple is constantly talking about each other's desires and readiness as well as reexamining their reasoning for trying to have a baby or deciding to postpone having one. Natural Family Planning is not only healthy for the woman but healthy for communication the absolute most important part of any relationship.

In my opinion, a woman goes on the pill until she and her husband discuss that they want to have a child, at which point she discontinues taking the pill.
Do you think that once a man straps on a condom he no longer needs to discuss with his wife her willingness to have sex at any given time?
Do you think that if a man puts on a condom, and the woman is ready to have a child, that she wouldn't point out that her desire might be difficult to achieve with that condom on?
Do you consider it necessary to ask each and every time that you are going to have sex if the woman wants to become pregnant?
I don't see the importance of repeating this communication every week or every month. You have decided not to have children until you decide to have a conversation about whether or not you now want to have children.
if this is what you mean by "practically" ending the conversation, then perhaps technically it is true. it doesn't practically remove the possibility of having the conversation, though.

Quote:

Here again we disagree. Remember you can have a contraceptive mentality in using NFP, but in using that method you are respecting the woman and here natural cycle of fertility and infertility. You are accepting the woman as she is and her healthy, normal, and natural cycle of fertility.

a contrivance to fit with the desired conclusion.

Quote:

Birth control has been shown to help women with certain illnesses, that is true. If you are using birth control to control your acne or cramps and there is no other medication that seems to work besides these synthetic hormones than we are having a different discussion. I assumed we were talking about using the pill specifically to combat the healthy fertility of a woman.

We are talking about several things -
the conditions under which it is ok to use unnatural and artifical means to achieve some benefit
whether or not it should be a sin to use non-abortionistic means such as a condom for use in family planning
whether or not it is logical to categorically deny artificial et al means to an end, when clearly it is ends is driving what means you are allowed to use to achieve those ends.

given the church's position against abortion, I would be happy to concede that the birth control pill would not be an acceptable form of contraception.

I completely disagree on the opinion that these other forms of contraception, in particular using a condom, are somehow disrespecting to a woman, and that a woman going on the pill practically ends any discussion about when to start or continue to grow a family.

Quote: Nareed

Remember saying something like "Do you know better than the being who created you?",?

That seems like indignation to me. I concede it may not be, but the end result is the same: if "God" says something, then it is so, and human opinion, experience, knowledge, science and philosophy count not.

Also every answer you provide comes down to "Jesus/God." With a strange obsession over "natural" when it suits you.

If God is God then true experience, knowledge, science and philosophy must always count and not contradict the truth of God. This is why nature and natural law is so important. It is the obvious experience and science we know very well as human beings. I would be very worried if our bodies show us one way to behave and God told us to do the opposite. That would be a problem.

Natural is used for arbitrary moral decisions. Humans are not meant to fly or be in space either, unless they are born with wings, or a rocket built into their ass.

Again sex is singled out. There is probably truth in that their rules say more about them than who they try to control.

Quote: Dalex64

an amazing condition, that it is ok for a marriage to be open to the possibility of children by relying on a miracle to provide conception. Isn't going against the slim odds of pregnancy when multiple simultaneous methods of birth control are in use also a miracle and gods will? If god wants someone to miraculously become pregnant, surely no minor inconvenience like contraception or a post-menopausal woman could stand in his way.

God does not want to force miracles on people who are not open to the possibility. That would be offensive to our freedom and God's love for us. In using contraception you are clearly demonstrating your desire as much as humanly possible to not allow pregnancy to occur using artificial means. Again I know you think it contrived because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions but it comes down to your mentality. Trusting and using the natural means God has provided to regulate births is a different thing than forcing our nature and health to conform to our wishes to have sex without the possibility of babies.

Quote:

Do you think that once a man straps on a condom he no longer needs to discuss with his wife her willingness to have sex at any given time?
Do you think that if a man puts on a condom, and the woman is ready to have a child, that she wouldn't point out that her desire might be difficult to achieve with that condom on?

Not at all, sex is always meant to be a mutual, free, and loving thing. Do you think that this open and respectful discussion is what happens in the practice of contraception in a married couple's lives? Do you not think that if the birth control responsibility is put only on one part of the couple the other sometimes feels the pressure to do what the other wants and when the other desires?

Quote:

Do you consider it necessary to ask each and every time that you are going to have sex if the woman wants to become pregnant?
I don't see the importance of repeating this communication every week or every month. You have decided not to have children until you decide to have a conversation about whether or not you now want to have children.
if this is what you mean by "practically" ending the conversation, then perhaps technically it is true. it doesn't practically remove the possibility of having the conversation, though.

I hope and pray that contracepting couples are having that conversation on a regular basis. However, so great is the importance of the discussion and so profound is the action of love making that I do think it is a conversation that is good to have on a very regular basis. You simply cannot not have this healthy and respectful conversation when using NFP.

Quote:

given the church's position against abortion, I would be happy to concede that the birth control pill would not be an acceptable form of contraception.

Actually the way I understand the birth control pill is it stops a woman from ovulating and therefore does not allow the natural cycle to occur or the possibility of fertilization. Plastic devices implanted in the uterus meant to irate the lining and prevent implantation as well as morning after pills are the real abortificiants.

Quote:

I completely disagree on the opinion that these other forms of contraception, in particular using a condom, are somehow disrespecting to a woman, and that a woman going on the pill practically ends any discussion about when to start or continue to grow a family.

And I completely disagree with your opinion and practically in working with many, many couples my experience shows me that I am correct. I have seen marriages completely turn around for the better just by eliminating contraception. Moving this discussion outside of the covenant of marriage is also where your opinion completely breaks down. Contraception is what has allowed the disrespect and objectification of women to reach the epic and disgusting levels we see all around us today.

Quote: rxwine

Natural is used for arbitrary moral decisions. Humans are not meant to fly or be in space either, unless they are born with wings, or a rocket built into their ass.

Again sex is singled out. There is probably truth in that their rules say more about them than who they try to control.

It is wonderful to fly. It takes an already healthy and natural desire in us to explore and travel and learn to new levels. Taking the natural healthy desire in us to have children and deadening it is like building a device that stops us from flying.