Simple question?

Quote: Nareed

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"
.

A Christian will say it's morally good because
it's commanded by god. This is a way of saying
only Christians can be moral, atheists are just
moral pretenders. FrG has hinted at this many
times.

Quote: Dalex64

Did you ever notice that whenever a christian does something evil, that they aren't really christian, but when an atheist does something evil, it is because they are atheist, and when an atheist does something good, it is despite the fact that they are atheist?

As I've been told many times atheism is nothing. It is a lack of belief. We all know this is not what true atheism is. True atheism is making an arrogant truth claim against reason and logic that there is definitively no God. However, let's take the standard definition that atheists like to use[correction] to avoid being called agnostic and to avoid having to defend their position. Since it is nothing than one cannot really determine can they if someone is doing something good or bad. Such distinctions lose all meaning. An atheist can create his or her own meaning and their own morality. Atheists can even create societal norms that line up with their own personal morality as long as they first eliminate the pesky moral systems that claim to be objective, universal, and based on God. So in a certain sense I agree with you that we shouldn't really say an act of an atheist is good or evil because those terms seem very subjective to a true atheist. They are just doing what they want to do, it is only those who believe that something more important than ourselves ground moral actions that can say to ourselves that was good or that was evil.

In the first part of your question you were wondering why when a Christian does something evil they aren't really Christian. Well I think the answer to that is to look at the very clear great commandments set up by Christ. Does an action go against the love of God and the love of neighbor? If it does it is not a Christian act. By the way I would say that their evil actions or sins don't mean that they aren't really Christians, but just that they haven't really allowed the grace of God to transform their life anew. Or they have but they are still struggling with the temptations and weakness of humanity and need to be strengthened and helped by a Christ centered community.

Quote: Nareed

Can you imagine how many popes would be surprised to find out they weren't really Christian in retrospect?

I don't think they would be surprised at all.

Quote:

More amazing is that a pope can be infallible and not a Christian at the same time.

It is amazing, what is even more amazing is that with these really sinful Popes none of them have ever taught something concerning faith and morals (strictly when infallibility applies) that goes against Scripture or Tradition.

Quote:

But it's usually stated as "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

I feel like this is kind of like a chicken and the egg scenario. Morally good and commanded by God are synonyms meaning the same thing. As you know the problem to be avoided in this question is to say that somehow God by commanding something evil could make it good. You also want to avoid the idea that God is superfluous to the notion of goodness and that a moral act would be good regardless if God commanded it or not. The answer I think is to say that a morally good act is an act God commands and vice versa.

So I can hear the objections about God's command to Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Here is where you prove that the two acts are one in the same, commanded by God and moral. Abraham knew this, he is our 'father in faith' after all. You can see through the whole story that Abraham knows that God would never ask him to do something evil so he trusts that God will provide and even tells a nervous Isaac who starts asking halfway up the mountain where the sacrifice is. Abraham goes so far as to think even if the Lord has me carry through with this He will resurrect his son from the dead and truly show He is God. However, the angel stays his hand and Abraham shows us all that what God commanded is indeed moral.

Quote: FrGamble

As I've been told many times atheism is nothing. It is a lack of belief.

A lack of belief is something. Remember that A is A and it cannot be non-A. Therefore if lack of belief is something, Atheism cannot be nothing. QED :)

Quote:

True atheism is making an arrogant truth claim against reason and logic that there is definitively no God.

I'm an Atheist who is certain there is no god. Period. End of Story.

This is not "against reason and logic," as it is precisely reason and logic, along with evidence, that lead me to this. It's not an arrogant claim, any more than your claim that Ra, Osiris, Ist, Athena, Juno, Vesta, Zeus, Mars, Huixlipoxtli, Melkart, Astarte, Podcastia(*), Hera, Tlaloc, Sechmed, Seth, Hathor, Serapis, Heracles, The Aten, etc. are not real, or at any rate not real gods (no idea what the church's position is now; as late as the mid 5th century, it asserted these deities were real, but demonic in nature).

(*)Podcastia is a deity made up by Will Web of the Heritage Podcast. She's the Goddess of Podcasting ;) I maintain this isn't a true deity because the name is ridiculous. On the other hand, Mike Duncan is a muse of history podcasting. I've evidence for that :)

Moving on:

Quote:

Atheists can even create societal norms that line up with their own personal morality as long as they first eliminate the pesky moral systems that claim to be objective, universal, and based on God.

Since there is no god, or gods, or even the god, the any moral system based on a deity of any kind is neither objective nor universal.

Come, now, if there were a Biblical commandment to eat a human baby for breakfast once a month, you'd find a way to rationalize why that is ultimately good, or give up and claim "god moves in mysterious ways." And possibly discuss what kind of sauce goes best with human babies. Don't believe me? Then ask yourself how much killing has been done in the name of your god, despite a very clear commandment from that same god not to kill.

Quote: FrGamble

It is amazing, what is even more amazing is that with these really sinful Popes none of them have ever taught something concerning faith and morals (strictly when infallibility applies) that goes against Scripture or Tradition.

How about the popes who decreed salvation for anyone who fought in a Crusade? That's moral and faith, isn't it? Unless salvation involves neither, which I'd find most peculiar. Yet going to the Middle east to kill and maim innocent men, women, and children, many of them Jews, BTW, and to plunder, pillage and rape, cannot possibly be seen, by your standards, as anything other than sinful.

Hmm. Quite the dilemma!

Christians do sin, right?

Where is the line between a Christian that sins and someone who isn't really Christian because of their sins?

References on the topic, such as from the bible or the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be helpful.

Quote: Nareed

I'm an Atheist who is certain there is no god. Period. End of Story.

This is not "against reason and logic," as it is precisely reason and logic, along with evidence, that lead me to this.

This is simply not true. I have never heard any logical argument for the non-existence of God. Nor have I heard any refutation of the logical arguments for God. I also have never seen, nor have you, any shred of real evidence for the non-existence of God. Goodness me, I am sounding like Evenbob right now, which means I must be wrong - please for the love of God prove me wrong! Give me a simple argument as to why God does not exist or give me some evidence, please.

Quote:

Come, now, if there were a Biblical commandment to eat a human baby for breakfast once a month, you'd find a way to rationalize why that is ultimately good, or give up and claim "god moves in mysterious ways." And possibly discuss what kind of sauce goes best with human babies. Don't believe me? Then ask yourself how much killing has been done in the name of your god, despite a very clear commandment from that same god not to kill.

This sickens me, not only your example but your argument. Let me say again that God would never command us to do anything against reason or our nature. Look He gave us a brain and created us a certain way, why would He go against what He has created? Here is some intelligence - no don't use it. Come on that is something only an atheist would do :) There is no rationalizing an immoral act. The only way one could do what you give as an example above is to claim that they and not God or reason where the arbiters of morality. In short they would have to be an atheist.

In regards to the killing done in the name of God. Surely you recognize that there is a difference in killing or murdering someone and killing in the midst of a war to defend or protect yourself or others.

Quote: Nareed

Hmm. Quite the dilemma!

It helps to first separate reality from fiction. The Pope never called on crusaders to plunder, pillage, and rape anyone. In fact anyone who did so was excommunicated as the vast majority of those taking part in the crusades were. Secondly, there is a difference between the Pope saying something in what is called the Ordinary Magisterium or ordinary day to day teaching and preaching and what is called declaring something "ex cathedra" meaning that it is an infallible statement.

Quote: Dalex64

Christians do sin, right?

Where is the line between a Christian that sins and someone who isn't really Christian because of their sins?

References on the topic, such as from the bible or the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be helpful.

Dude, I'm a walking Catechism but I will try to get some references when I get a chance a little later tonight. Anyway, Christians do sin that is fur sure! However, because God's love for you is unconditional there really isn't an amount of sin you can do that would cause you to not be a Christian anymore. What would cause you to cease being a Christian is a denial of Christ, but even then Christ will never deny you.

Quote: FrGamble

Give me a simple argument as to why God does not exist or give me some evidence, please.

There's really only one argument. The
universe has to obey certain laws, it
always operates within those laws. No
real examples outside of urban legends
exist that those laws can be broken.
End of story.

You can claim all day long that god exists
outside of the universal laws, but you have
zero proof of this, just other peoples
stories and the claim that god talks to you
all the time. Atheists need actual evidence,
yours doesn't qualify.