Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

your own conscience condemns you.

For ogling my neighbors wife? I don't think
so. I judge myself quite leniently, thank you.
I'm never harsh on myself, why would I be.
I stay within my parameters, but there are no
thought crimes in my universe. Unlike yours..

Exodus. God intervened, but exodus didn't actually happen. No plagues, no Passover, no murder of innocent first born children.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

Holocaust, and all those other things that Nareed mentioned that actually did happen - where was God's intervention on a similar level as in exodus? Especially in the Holocaust against the chosen people. Where were the prophets and the prophesies, followed by God's swift justice if they were not obeyed?

Of course, it is all purely hypothetical to me, a Thermian discussion - I don't believe there is or ever was a god who intervened in human affairs.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm not sure, I wonder how it compares with the number of Israelites tortured to death or babies killed.

It seems odd an omnipotent and allegedly omnibenevolent being would choose to kill tens of thousands of people when he should have had literally millions of humane alternatives available.

Unless he's a bloodthirsty monster who revels at the spilling of human blood. Or maybe he has anger issues. Or maybe je's still well behind in expiating an "original sin" his creator created him with.

IN any case, these are not the actions of an all powerful deity who supposedly loves everyone.

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First of all don't you realize that you recently were extolling this type of deplorable behavior as an example of gentle persecution from the Romans.

What is your problem with degrees?

The Roman's persecution of Christians was awful and unfair. But compared to the Christians' persecution of pagans, it was not as bad.

Clear?

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Secondly, what Capone was telling people to do was not in their best interest or according to reason or nature.

It's not in your interest to not get hurt or killed?

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God only wants what is best for us so we can thrive as human beings.

You keep saying that as though you were being serious and not joking. But I don't hate you enough to believe it's not a joke.

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However, you are wrong when you speak about monks or other religious doing such things

Oh? So raiding villages, smashing cult statues, beating people up and "persuading" them to convert to Christianity is not brutal persecution?

Quote: Nareed

It seems odd an omnipotent and allegedly omnibenevolent being would choose to kill tens of thousands of people when he should have had literally millions of humane alternatives available.

IN any case, these are not the actions of an all powerful deity who supposedly loves everyone.

They are the actions of a God who loves and respects the freedom of everyone.

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The Roman's persecution of Christians was awful and unfair. But compared to the Christians' persecution of pagans, it was not as bad.

Clear?

As mud. You just simply are wrong. The Roman's persecution of Christians including the feeding of them to wild beasts, fodder for gladiators, dipping them in tar and lighting them on fire, and crucifixion is so far beyond what any misguided Christian, going against the teaching of the Church, may have done in the persecution of pagans.

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It's not in your interest to not get hurt or killed?

So groveling and sitting still in the face of evil is good for us. Allowing ourselves to be terrorized is in our interest. What is it with you and this idea? Do you have one of those shirts: Keep being submissive and Carry on.

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Oh? So raiding villages, smashing cult statues, beating people up and "persuading" them to convert to Christianity is not brutal persecution?

I have no doubt that some illicit, independent, and overzealous groups might have done something like you have mentioned above. But remember you are comparing this to the outright killing of people because they are pagan and the other things radical Islam has been charged with such as the kidnapping of children, raping of women, brutal torture and embarrassment, and decapitation.

Romans, Christians, and Muslims.

Such great examples in the last few posts of how religion breeds intolerance and violence.

Quote: Dalex64

Romans, Christians, and Muslims.

Such great examples in the last few posts of how religion breeds intolerance and violence.

I wish I could say we have progressed so much. It was only in the most recent past century that more violence, death, and hatred then ever before has happened - the only difference is that it was not about religion, except maybe in trying to destroy it. I wish we could say we have become so much better but alas we have seen things in our own day that would make the Romans themselves cringe. Who would have thought we would develop weapons capable of destroying our entire planet and then create thousands of them, much less actually use and threaten the use of them?

Imagine what the religious zealots of the past or present would have done if they had access to those weapons.

Quote: FrGamble

So groveling and sitting still in the face of evil is good for us.

Isn't that what you do at church every Sunday?

Quote: FrGamble

The Roman's persecution of Christians including the feeding of them to wild beasts, fodder for gladiators, dipping them in tar and lighting them on fire, and crucifixion

All these actions are indefensible. But you make it sound as though the Romans came up with these specific atrocities to use on Christians alone. This is not the case. For instance, after the slave revolt known as the Third Servile War, six thousand prisoners were crucified along the Appian Way. This was decades before Jesús was an itch in Joseph's nuts (largely because Joseph hadn't been born, yet).

The rest were among the popular entertainments at the arena. Yes, they were brutal, unconscionable, terrible and every word of condemnation you can think of. But maybe this was also ordained by your god.

Tertullian, the Christian Apologist, claimed the blood of martyrs was the seed of the church. This means the Romans had to kill Christians if the church was going to bloom. It fits, doesn't it? Can you say it's not so? Shouldn't you be grateful the Romans were so brutal?

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Keep being submissive and Carry on.

I thought that is God's will.

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I have no doubt that some illicit, independent, and overzealous groups might have done something like you have mentioned above.

Many.

They also destroyed synagogues. They were rarely punished. In one famous instance, Theodosius wanted to issue a condemnation and offer money to pay for rebuilding a synagogue. But Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, warned him not to do so.

Quote: Dalex64

Imagine what the religious zealots of the past or present would have done if they had access to those weapons.

Remember it is not the weapons that cause the problem, it is the ideas. The unimaginable horrors of the 20th century were not cause by new and fancy weapons they were caused by the idea that we can use human beings as objects or destroy them to gain or hold onto power. To do this you have to first unseat God, judgement, justice, and morality. This is why religion and the Church were always the first to be attacked or assimilated and brought into line. Once God and religion are out of the way or quieted we can do whatever we want, in our last century many horrible people did just that.