Simple question?

Quote: Nareed

This is an incredible disadvantage when trying to learn.

I have a friend who is 81 and was
a priest in the 60's. He went to
seminary for 8 years in the 50's.
When he would see his parents
several times a year, they were
upset and told him the cult that's
the Catholic Church was brainwashing
him. This hurt his feelings, but he
gradually did see that they were
right and left the priesthood after
5 years. He's an outspoken atheist
now.

Quote: rxwine

I'm trying to bet on the answer ahead of time. Let's see, god wasn't actually split but was just existing in 2 or 3 forms at the same time. Maybe it was an illusion? I think the text says something different though.

"God" is all powerful at the quantum level, too. He can be/not be one at the same time! He can be/not be three gods in one! He can/cannot make a weight so heavy he can/cannot lift it using all/none of his strength simultaneously, too!

This is intended as a religious question.

It took 350 years for a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem to be thrashed out. But what if the people involved for some reason had refused to provide the evidence to the world?

Does it change the facts? It would certainly be a bizarre situation, but does it change the facts?
no.

Does the number of learned and intelligent people who doubt it or believe matter as to the fact itself being true or not true?
no.

(and here's the kicker)
Does the number of intelligent or learned people who follow religious doctrine matter as to the truth of it? No, the entire existence and history or the Catholic Church can be entirely irrelevant to truth, and the number of believers is irrelevant. If 99% of the world believe in god, that is irrelevant as to whether god exists.

A fact is, or is not. No amount of believers confirms it or denies it. Whether 1 or a zillion.

Thoughtful atheist of the day: http://www.alternet.org/story/145822/why_'everything_has_a_cause'_is_a_terrible_justification_for_god's_existence

No, I'm probably not going to find and post one of these a day.

Quote: Dalex64

Thoughtful atheist of the day: http://www.alternet.org/story/145822/why_'everything_has_a_cause'_is_a_terrible_justification_for_god's_existence

What a great article. I've used half of these
arguments myself. This is a good one:

'Why on earth would we assume that any currently unanswered question about physical existence -- even a massive and baffling question like how it all came to exist in the first place -- would eventually turn out to be caused by God? It's never been the right answer before. Not even once. Why would we assume it's the right answer this time?'

He's so right. The 10,001 things of the past
that were all attributed to god or the
supernatural, have all been proven beyond
doubt to be natural occurrences. Not once
has the god theory been correct. That's a
pretty poor track record for god.

Quote: rxwine

It took 350 years for a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem to be thrashed out.

A second solution, if you believe Fermat.

Quote:

But what if the people involved for some reason had refused to provide the evidence to the world?

Like tenure?

Seriously, in math the fact that X^n+Y^n<>Z^n when n>2 is not as significant as why it is so. Therefore withholding the proof means withholding everything that matters.

In the case of religion, whether or not there is a "God" matters a great deal, regardless as to why there isn't one, or how this is determined. For one thing, if there is no "God," what's the good of following all the doctrines, rules, strictures, etc. unrelated to belief imposed by a given faith?

This is the main reason I hold any ethical arguments based on faith are ipso-facto irrelevant. The point they try to make may be right, but the reason is unconnected to reality. Further, when the point is wrong, as in for example maintaining slavery, the harm done to people can be enormous. Can you imagine anything worse than wrecking countless lives and ending countless more based on a delusion?

Quote: Nareed

Can you imagine anything worse than wrecking countless lives and ending countless more based on a delusion?

The Crusades. The Inquisition. Persecuting witches.
All done in the name of self delusion.

Quote: Nareed

A second solution, if you believe Fermat.

I'm not sure if I made the best use of the idea. But anyway, once you have actual evidence, doesn't matter what the other 4-5 billion people on Earth think no matter how smart some of them are.

But you have to actually have evidence, not just variations of a Nigerian scam presentation where there is a reward promised once you commit to the process ahead of time. (heaven being the reward (carrot). Hell is the stick)

Pretty sure if the Pope had harder evidence for Christianity, he'd bring it out. If Muslims dying for Allah isn't convincing to everyone, nothing Christians are doing is any more convincing.

People believing as mightily as they can in something is still not actual evidence, except of extreme belief.

Quote: rxwine

People believing as mightily as they can in something is still not actual evidence, except of extreme belief.

It reminds me of Catch 22 where Yosarrian is asked
'suppose everybody else felt the same way you do.'
Yosarrian answers that he'd be a fool think any other
way, then.

That's religion. How could the crowd be wrong.

Quote: rxwine

I'm not sure if I made the best use of the idea. But anyway, once you have actual evidence, doesn't matter what the other 4-5 billion people on Earth think no matter how smart some of them are.

true. But unless you release the evidence, you cannot expect anyone to believe you.

I think what you're saying is that some will believe on faith, perhaps many billions will, but the numbers don't actually matter to the evidence being withheld.

Quote:

Pretty sure if the Pope had harder evidence for Christianity, he'd bring it out.

Not so sure.

There's an old joke I can't recall in full, concerning Gorbachev lamenting the fall of the USSR to the Pope. The punch line is the Pope saying "We didn't show them our paradise."

Quote:

People believing as mightily as they can in something is still not actual evidence, except of extreme belief.

Yes, absolutely.

I don't have a problem with belief, no matter what it is (and, really, the Christian mythos is quite outrageous). My problem is when such belief is used to impose a moral code on everyone else, often by very repressive means. Hell, Christians even killed each other in great numbers over the "correct" interpretation of their belief. Maybe one can refrain from blaming the belief or even the church for this, but one also wonders why the all powerful god did not come off the heavens to firmly say "You effing idiots! You've got it all wrong!"