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Simple question?
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| February 8th, 2016 at 9:22:17 AM permalink | |
| petroglyph Member since: Aug 3, 2014 Threads: 25 Posts: 6227 | Good post. The church didn't want slaves killed much like the coyote doesn't want the rabbits poisoned. There wouldn't be anything left for them to eat. The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW |
| February 8th, 2016 at 9:39:46 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I am not trying to dismiss them but maybe you should direct your frustration and vitriol towards groups or institutions that were doing the vast majority of these atrocities and doing them without a hint of fairness, concern for the person, or any sorrow.
I'm sorry but it simply does not. Please compare the Church to any country or other institution in the same time era and you will see the differences. The Church's history is not perfect, it is made up of human beings, but it is not the worst. I think you yourself mentioned this just a few posts ago, "They were bad, but not as bad as others." This fits with the notion that the Church is human and divine and the reality of sin. I'm convinced you will never understand this until you come to grips with the reality of sin in the world, in others, and in yourself.
You can't exaggerate faults and minimize blessings. The Church started these things and was often the only one caring for these people in need. It remains today the single greatest charitable organization in the world by leaps and bounds. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| February 8th, 2016 at 9:45:58 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I think you are on to something here. I disagree with how far you run with it, but yes the Church's main concern has always been the salvation of souls. Now central to your salvation is only two things: The love of God and the love of others. The Reformation was an offense to one and slavery an offense to the other. During a war on two fronts you often have to respond to the one most pressing or aggressively attacking. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| February 8th, 2016 at 10:37:13 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
During the Reformation, if either side had said "Ok, you worship your way and we worship ours," that would have been that. No wars, no loss of prestige for both sides, no distractions form real problems. And in the end all the splinters of Christianity would exist much as they do today. Instead both sides chose to fight things out. Just goes to show you there may be a limit to human intelligence, but human stupidity knows no bounds. This is also what I mean that a commandment to love your neighbor is immoral. Both sides killed and tortured those on the other side out of "love." What one should do is respect one's neighbor, especially their autonomy, independence and their rights. Christianity doesn't allow this. Or at least not if there is a disagreement on matters of faith. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| February 8th, 2016 at 10:46:00 AM permalink | |
| FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I agree but would add that human pride also knows no limits.
A failure to love does not prove that the commandment to love is immoral.
You are forgetting that love also corrects. A parent who never corrects their children does not love them. You can respect someone's autonomy, independence, and rights and at the same time show them they are wrong. In the case of the Reformation though the parents need to also recognize when they are doing wrong and be willing to be corrected by the children. If both sides are not willing to be corrected and receive correction you end up with the mess we had in the Reformation. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
| February 8th, 2016 at 11:28:51 AM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
You really can't help it, can you. You're ONLY defense, over and over and over, is 'We were bad, but not nearly as bad as others' You don't understand that YOU DON'T GET A PASS! You say you represent a 'loving god', please ignore our horrific past when god was obviously looking in the other direction. We have it all straightened out now, god is finally on board. Your defense would be laughed out of any court in the world. 'We're guilty, your honor, but there are others that are guiltier.' It's a child's defense. Johnny gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar and his defense is his sister took twice as many yesterday. It's defense by deflection, and it doesn't work. You god is supposed to love people, not torture and kill them. Your church is an advertisement for the appeal atheism. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| February 8th, 2016 at 12:54:28 PM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
What pride? They were acting out of love. Love corrects, does it not? What's better, to kill someone or to let them go to hell?
1) A parent has a moral and legal right, and obligation, to instruct and discipline their children. You have no right to interfere with my life. 2) The church has neither the moral nor the legal right to impose its will on anyone. When it is given the legal prerogative to do so, what we get is oppression. 3) You have no evidence for your moral position, nor any proof. It's the height of irresponsibility to think you are in a position to offer corrections to others, and the height of arrogance to think you can force your corrections on other people. You know, like preventing some people form civil marriage, or determining the use of their own bodies. This is what leads to wars by the Catholics to stamp out Protestantism, and by the Protestants to stamp out Catholicism. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| February 8th, 2016 at 1:23:22 PM permalink | |
| Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25013 |
This is why the concept of god is so dangerous. The truly deluded, like the Church, think god 'talking' to them trumps all of mans laws. It's frightening how far they took this in the past. And have no doubts, they would still be doing it today if we allowed them to. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
| February 8th, 2016 at 4:00:25 PM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 | Harsh words against faith: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/reasonadvocates/2015/08/29/religious-faith-is-belief-without-evidence/ “Faith is believing things when common sense tells you not to,” -George Seaton “Faith means not wanting to know what is true.” -Friedrich Nietzche “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.” -Mark Twain “The only way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” -Benjamin Franklin “The whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence.” -Bruce Bartlett "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
| February 8th, 2016 at 4:31:33 PM permalink | |
| Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 | Here are a couple of other people who agree that miracles aren't all they used to be - both a person who believes in them, and a person who does not: Http://theweek.com/articles/441710/why-believe-miracles Http://theweek.com/articles/441450/age-miracles-over--even-religious "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |