Simple question?

Quote: Evenbob

That's your excuse for every bad thing the
Church has done. "We may be bad, but not
nearly as bad as others." Like that's a reason.
Try it in court and you'll get the same sentence
as everybody else because it's not a valid defense.
It's a cop-out.

I think this is a more fair observation on your part and I thank you for it. I agree in a court of today even one such instance looks awful. However we have to be careful not to judge the past using the circumstances of today. In all of these things the Church was in its time a light of justice and fairness. There is a consistent theme of the Church on the forefront of the changes society needed. In the education and equality of women, in the eradication of slavery, in the civil rights movement, in caring for the poor and needy and victims of plagues, etc. I would like the Church to be perfect and based on your extrapolation of infallibility of the Word of God and the Church (which ignores the sinfulness of human beings) you would demand the Church be perfect. However, knowing that it is both a human and divine institution it is not surprising to me in the least that we are as you say, "bad, but not nearly as bad as others."

Quote: FrGamble

knowing that it is both a human and divine institution it is not surprising to me in the least that we are as you say, "bad, but not nearly as bad as others."

The point is, the Church is untrustworthy.
They have the same self centered goals
that everybody else has, and the same
methods of attaining them. To an atheist
the Church looks like a front organization for
some weird kind of god mafia. 'Abandon
All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here'.

Quote: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4005

But the all-time grand champion exterminator of witches was Ferdinand von Wittelsbach, Catholic prince-archbishop of Cologne, Germany, who burned 2,000 members of his flock during the 1630s.

Https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4005

The Catholic church may not be solely responsible for the 30-50,000+ deaths of women accused of being witches, but they certainly were complicit along with the rest of the christians at the time who were caught up in the religious fervor.

Incubi and Succubi were believed to be both demons possessing people, and demons physically incarnated on earth.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus

Quote: FrGamble

However we have to be careful not to judge the past using the circumstances of today. In all of these things the Church was in its time a light of justice and fairness.

But they were wrong. They thought they were right, but they were wrong. What they did to those women was neither just nor fair. They accused people of being witches and wielding supernatural power, and I think in most if not all cases everyone will now agree that they were wrong. They were completely caught up in their own beliefs and I think you'd have a hard time explaining how they were following the teaching of Jesus.

Quote:

There is a consistent theme of the Church on the forefront of the changes society needed. In the education and equality of women, in the eradication of slavery, in the civil rights movement, in caring for the poor and needy and victims of plagues, etc.

We have shown quite clearly how the church dragged their feet on issues of women's rights and equality. They also by no means were at the forefront of eradicating slavery - other cultures and countries were making slavery illegal before the church did.

Quote:

"bad, but not nearly as bad as others."

I would characterize them as just as bad as the rest of them.

The church has been wrong about things and made mistakes in the past, even the recent past. I think it is appropriate to continue to question their beliefs, and what else they might still be wrong about.

You are right, they are not infallible, yet they make rules and interpretations of things as if they were. Every contradictory ruling or reinterpretation is issued with the belief that THIS time, they got it right.

Faith that God is guiding your decisions and having little doubt if any about your decisions because of that belief is a very dangerous thing.

Quote: Dalex64

Faith that God is guiding your decisions and having little doubt if any about your decisions because of that belief is a very dangerous thing.

This is the point of these discussions for
me, it's why I constantly bring up the
hugely flawed history of the Church.

God and Jesus supposedly ran the
Church just as much in the horror
that was the Middle Ages as they
supposedly do now. There were so
many stupendously and just plain
stupid mistakes made, how can any
of this be taken seriously. How can
an organization with this kind of
past be trusted in any way.

Just look at the events of the last
20 years, the lives ruined by out
of control priests because they were
trusted. The awful history of this
company supposedly ruled by a
loving god is atrocious. FrG will
now say, so what, man isn't perfect.
That's his answer for everything.

Quote: Dalex64

They were completely caught up in their own beliefs and I think you'd have a hard time explaining how they were following the teaching of Jesus.

I wish they were caught up in their own beliefs. They were more caught up in the times and thought of the day. In doing this they were not following the teaching of Jesus Christ. By the way one should make a distinction between the Church and the example of some evil people like the one you quoted earlier who happen to be Catholic. In the 300 years between 1300-1600 the Church allowed the execution of around 137 witches. While one is too many we need to put that in perspective for the times.

Quote:

We have shown quite clearly how the church dragged their feet on issues of women's rights and equality. They also by no means were at the forefront of eradicating slavery - other cultures and countries were making slavery illegal before the church did.

The Church was the first to educate women in Europe and granting them positions of power and leadership. The Church was indeed among the forefront of eradicating slavery and during that dark time in our human history of the transatlantic slave trade was constantly condemning and excommunicating slave traders and demanding the humane treatment of all people.

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I would characterize them as just as bad as the rest of them.

And you would be wrong.

Quote:

The church has been wrong about things and made mistakes in the past, even the recent past. I think it is appropriate to continue to question their beliefs, and what else they might still be wrong about.

This I can agree with.

Quote:

You are right, they are not infallible, yet they make rules and interpretations of things as if they were. Every contradictory ruling or reinterpretation is issued with the belief that THIS time, they got it right.

The Magisterium or teaching authority of the Church is infallible. This is different than the practice of Catholics or even its hierarchy, including the Pope. The changes in the Church have been to return to the true teaching of the Gospel when people have strayed. Jesus got it right, we keep getting it wrong.

Quote:

Faith that God is guiding your decisions and having little doubt if any about your decisions because of that belief is a very dangerous thing.

I can also agree with this.

Quote: Evenbob

This is the point of these discussions for
me, it's why I constantly bring up the
hugely flawed history of the Church.

I think the point of these discussions is that "hugely flawed" history of the Church is a myth. The Church does have a flawed history but if compared to any country or culture in its time it is much better than them all. However, I readily admit is still flawed and sinful. I don't know if you expect the Church to be perfect or what standard you are holding the Church to but it might be a little unrealistic.

Quote:

God and Jesus supposedly ran the
Church just as much in the horror
that was the Middle Ages as they
supposedly do now. There were so
many stupendously and just plain
stupid mistakes made, how can any
of this be taken seriously. How can
an organization with this kind of
past be trusted in any way.

Again if you were going to look at all the institutions that existed in the difficult times of the Middle Ages I don't believe you will find one better than the Church. Also if you were going to judge the present trustworthiness of an institution or country based on its past mistakes I believe you would have a hard time trusting any.

Quote:

FrG will now say, so what, man isn't perfect.
That's his answer for everything.

Even though I know you do not believe in sin I think you would agree that indeed man is not perfect. There is a saying, "If you find a perfect Church or a perfect institution, don't join it because then it will no longer be perfect."

Quote: FrGamble

I think the point of these discussions is that "hugely flawed" history of the Church is a myth.

Burning people at the stake and having
Inquisitions are not myths, the are huge
flaws. No matter how many times you try
and dismiss them with a shrug and a wink.

Quote:

Again if you were going to look at all the institutions that existed in the difficult times of the Middle Ages I don't believe you will find one better than the Church.

There you go AGAIN! 'We may have been bad,
awful, horrible, but we weren't as bad as others..'
You can't get off the hook. Hitler never personally
slammed the door on a single crematorium, and
that would have been his defense. 'Don't blame me,
they overstepped their bounds, they are far more
guilty than I am.'

I'm convinced you will never understand that your
Yahweh & Son organization has a history of the
worst of human flaws, the worst of human greed
and self deception, the worst of self centeredness
and corruption. All patched together with: 'But wait.
We built some schools, we built some orphanages,
we built some hospitals. Please look the other way.'

It's not enough.

Quote: Dalex64

We have shown quite clearly how the church dragged their feet on issues of women's rights and equality.

You know, the Catholic church could have made life for women a great deal easier and more equal if they'd only ordained women. Of course this is a failure of almost every religion.

Quote:

They also by no means were at the forefront of eradicating slavery - other cultures and countries were making slavery illegal before the church did.

Whatever they did, it didn't work at all. While people focus on slavery in North America, the vast majority of slaves were sold and used in colonies belonging to the big three Catholic kingdoms of the era: France, Spain and Portugal.

Curiously enough, it was the secular French Republic, during the French Revolution, which first abolished slavery and decreed racial equality

Quote: FrGamble

The Church was indeed among the forefront of eradicating slavery and during that dark time in our human history of the transatlantic slave trade was constantly condemning and excommunicating slave traders and demanding the humane treatment of all people.

You know that feeling when someone makes a symbolic but useless gesture of support? That was what the church was doing.

What they needed to do was to threaten to excommunicate the kings of France, Portugal and France, unless they put a stop to slavery and inhumane treatment. But it's hard t do so, even privately and discreetly, while you're also demanding these same kings make war on the heretics, isn't it?

You can say the church lost sight of the Jesus and instead focused on temporal matters, and yadda, yadda, yadda, but the fact is these actions were wholly motivated by faith. In the church's eye, the Reformation was a bigger moral evil than slavery.

This is he only possible, logical conclusion when departing from faulty premises. Namely that "salvation" matters more than life. In the end, in the church's eye, the slaves used up (i.e. worked to death) by the Catholic kingdoms would go to heaven (maybe), while those embracing a Protestant creed were condemned to hell (certainly).

Therefore it's better to let slaves be tortured and killed for even minor infractions, or worked to death, or to let them die on slave ships, than to let white European farmers and tradespeople peacefully practice a variation of Christianity the Church frowns upon.