Challenge to FrGamble

Quote: Dalex64

As for the forced conversions, at one particular point in time, forced conversions and baptisms were not allowed by the church. HOWEVER they interpreted this to mean that the conversion and baptism ITSELF could not be made under force, it was acceptable for the person to agree to convert under torture and other coercion. In that situation, they were not allowed to revert to Judaism, because one way or another they "agreed" to convert.

I think your interpretation of how the Church interpreted the ban of forced conversions and baptisms is wrong and certainly not universal.

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Interesting that it is a one-way process, too. Once you willingly convert, it was never acceptable to convert to another religion.

This also is not correct. Freedom of Religion and the decision to convert or change your religion is a fundamental human right supported by the Church.

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Also, the Inquisition was not just the Spanish Inquisition.

Correct, and there were many Inquisitions.

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The main thing though, is you just need to read, and understand that even though there may have been a time that the church was opposed to certain actions, there was another time when they either performed similar actions themselves, or were complicit in those acts.

Thank you for your good advice, I will continue to read about these things. I would like to point out that while there have been times when people in the Church or officials of the Church performed actions that we know were wrong or were complicit in them they were always going against the official teaching of the Church as inspired by the Scriptures and Tradition.

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Another thing is you do not get to absolve an organization of responsibility because it is against current policy, or how the scripture was interpreted differently or ignored completely at certain times, or 'bad people' were in charge. In the case of the church, it is still the same organization that traces it's roots all the way back to Peter, as you are so proud of pointing out.

Yes and of its history so much longer than any government, state, or other human institution it would be worth looking at these moments when bad people ignored policy, the Scriptures, and the teachings of Christ compared with how often heinous things have been done at the behest and even encouraged by certain governments. Throughout its very long history the Church, through its saints and through its establishment and continuation of the largest charitable outreach the world has ever know through orphanages, hospitals, shelters, soup kitchens, addiction centers, affordable housing, adoption agencies, etc. Not to mention its establishment and support of the arts and the sciences through universities, schools, monasteries, convents, Churches, etc. Yes, it is not an excuse and doesn't absolve the sometimes awful past, but the history of the Church put up against any empire, instituation, state, government, whatever shines out like a light in the darkness.

Quote: Nareed

Would you be able to prove your gods' existence in a court of law?

I don't know the crappy newer version of Miracle on 34th Street did it.

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1) actually he does. He just disagrees with you.

I don't mind disagreements, that would be cool. The problem is not recognizing the need for evidence to support truth claims.

Quote: FrGamble

The problem is not recognizing the need for evidence to support truth claims.

The evidence for the Christian god had to spread by word of mouth just like any fairy tale. It's not worth the paper it's written on.

Quote: FrGamble

I think your interpretation of how the Church interpreted the ban of forced conversions and baptisms is wrong and certainly not universal.

It isn't my interpretation. Quote from that wikipedia page:

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Forced baptism was contrary to the law of the Catholic Church, and theoretically anybody who had been forcibly baptized could legally return to Judaism. However, this was very narrowly interpreted. Legal definitions of the time theoretically acknowledged that a forced baptism was not a valid sacrament, but confined this to cases where it was literally administered by physical force. A person who had consented to baptism under threat of death or serious injury was still regarded as a voluntary convert, and accordingly forbidden to revert to Judaism.

Quote: FrGamble

This also is not correct. Freedom of Religion and the decision to convert or change your religion is a fundamental human right supported by the Church.

It is now, not then. See the quote above, about being forbidded to revert to Judaism.

Quote: FrGamble

Thank you for your good advice, I will continue to read about these things. I would like to point out that while there have been times when people in the Church or officials of the Church performed actions that we know were wrong or were complicit in them they were always going against the official teaching of the Church as inspired by the Scriptures and Tradition.

Again, that is against the current interpretation, not against the official teaching at the time. It is the current belief that the current teaching is the correct interpretation, and reflecting the original intent and teachings. That is what they believed then, too.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes and of its history so much longer than any government, state, or other human institution it would be worth looking at these moments when bad people ignored policy, the Scriptures, and the teachings of Christ compared with how often heinous things have been done at the behest and even encouraged by certain governments. Throughout its very long history the Church, through its saints and through its establishment and continuation of the largest charitable outreach the world has ever know through orphanages, hospitals, shelters, soup kitchens, addiction centers, affordable housing, adoption agencies, etc. Not to mention its establishment and support of the arts and the sciences through universities, schools, monasteries, convents, Churches, etc. Yes, it is not an excuse and doesn't absolve the sometimes awful past, but the history of the Church put up against any empire, instituation, state, government, whatever shines out like a light in the darkness.

several things - again you are falling back to fallacies such as - other people/governments did it to, or did it worse - neither of those things are a justification, neither are the balance of good acts against evil acts. You say it doesn't absolve, and you are right - and you should stop using the good in this way to offset the bad.

You want to add up all the good and hold it up like a light in the darkness? If you add up all the evil, as if there were some way to actually quantify how much evil every evil act in the world was worth, you might find that in the very long history of the church they are also at the top of the list for evil acts comitted.

Ordinary evidence by word of mouth thousands of years old, isn't the best evidence you could desire, however we are really concerned with "divine" evidence which is even worse to verify.

I was trying to think of a worse scenario to try to prove something, but thousands of years old, word of mouth and of a divine nature is about as bad as it gets.

So, does FrGamble really believe in evidence based reality? It's like believing in a shadow of a shadow.

Quote: Dalex64

It isn't my interpretation. Quote from that wikipedia page:

I disagree with Wikipedia's interpretation and statement here.

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several things - again you are falling back to fallacies such as - other people/governments did it to, or did it worse - neither of those things are a justification, neither are the balance of good acts against evil acts. You say it doesn't absolve, and you are right - and you should stop using the good in this way to offset the bad.

I'm not using these things as a justification, only to encourage you to apply your criticism a bit wider than just the Catholic Church.

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You want to add up all the good and hold it up like a light in the darkness? If you add up all the evil, as if there were some way to actually quantify how much evil every evil act in the world was worth, you might find that in the very long history of the church they are also at the top of the list for evil acts comitted.

I disagree.

Quote: rxwine

Ordinary evidence by word of mouth thousands of years old, isn't the best evidence you could desire, however we are really concerned with "divine" evidence which is even worse to verify.

I was trying to think of a worse scenario to try to prove something, but thousands of years old, word of mouth and of a divine nature is about as bad as it gets.

So, does FrGamble really believe in evidence based reality?

If word of mouth thousands of years old was all the evidence then you may have a point. However, this is far from the case.

Like ufo sightings and swamp apes, you have further evidence. That's about it.

There is lots and lots of packaging and presentation, I'll admit that. But not evidence.

Quote: Dalex64

Another thing is you do not get to absolve an organization of responsibility because it is against current policy.

This really bothers me about the Church.
They think because because they stop
doing something, that excuses what they
did in the past in their gods name. It
doesn't, not in the slightest. We don't let
Charles Manson out of jail because he's
sorry now. Evil is evil, it doesn't get forgiven.
And the Church was the most evil empire
the world has ever known.