Challenge to FrGamble

Quote: FrGamble

I'm not using these things as a justification, only to encourage you to apply your criticism a bit wider than just the Catholic Church.

I feel no reason to do so when we are discussing the Catholic church, Christianity, and religion in general.

If we were discussing the evils of governments, I wouldn't be criticizing religion outside of where they were the de-facto government.

Quote: Dalex64

I feel no reason to do so when we are discussing the Catholic church, Christianity, and religion in general.

If we were discussing the evils of governments, I wouldn't be criticizing religion outside of where they were the de-facto government.

Fair enough. I'd just like to point out that despite the failures of whatever country you are a citizen or whatever other groups you are proud to be part of, you have found a way to live in the tension of their failures and celebrate their good. I imagine you also live with a hope that they will live according to their founding principles and the best of their ideals in the future.

Quote: FrGamble

Fair enough. I'd just like to point out that despite the failures of whatever country you are a citizen or whatever other groups you are proud to be part of, you have found a way to live in the tension of their failures and celebrate their good. .

Really. The KKK? NSDAP (Nazi Party)? Black Panthers?
If you Google the worst organizations of all time, the
Church is always mentioned by somebody. The evils
that were once condoned by the terrible enforcers
of a horrible fictitious god are legion, no amount of
glossing over and forgetting will forgive them. The
Vatican should be torn down brick by brick and all
the wealth it's stolen for the last 1500 years should be
given back to it's rightful owners.

Quote: FrGamble

Fair enough. I'd just like to point out that despite the failures of whatever country you are a citizen or whatever other groups you are proud to be part of, you have found a way to live in the tension of their failures and celebrate their good. I imagine you also live with a hope that they will live according to their founding principles and the best of their ideals in the future.

But that isn't what you are doing. You are attempting to minimize or dismiss what the church has done, and attempting to deflect onto other organizations. You are even trying to deny the facts, and disbelieve them.

Now you are trying to deflect on to me my feelings about the past acts of this country, as if the fact I may or may not be at peace with them excuses the acts that took place.

I am trying to point out facts. Facts about what your organization did. I'm not trying to compare it to what other organizations did. Even if I was comparing it to other organizations, 'everyone else was doing it' still isn't a justification.

You seem to be trying very hard to avoid admitting that the church ever did any wrong, and instead are blaming 'bad actors' within the church, blaming them for ignoring or misinterpreting the scripture, other organizations at the time that carried out acts with the church's complicity, and are trying to "buy" your way out by noting all of the good things the church has done.

You want to point out bad things that this country or other countries have done? Then don't be surprised when I say "yes that was wrong, that was bad" instead of saying "everyone else was doing it too!" or "we have the greatest democracy in the world and the most freedom of anywhere at any time!"

Quote: Dalex64

But that isn't what you are doing. You are attempting to minimize or dismiss what the church has done, and attempting to deflect onto other organizations. You are even trying to deny the facts, and disbelieve them.

I am not trying to deny facts or disbelieve them only correct exaggerations and myths. Look at Evenbob comparing the Church to the KKK and I think you can see how hard it is sometimes to know when people are correctly criticizing the Church for things it has done wrong and people who are off the deep end in a brainwashed made up fantasy world.

What I would like to do is correct the record, recognize the circumstances, not forget the good, lambast the bad apples, focus on the saints, and at the same time say "yes that was wrong, that was bad." Basically I am trying to be reasonable about the discussion of the Church's past in the same way we are reasonable about the discussion of the past of our countries, our loved ones, or even ourselves. I am not trying to belittle the times of awful mistakes in the Church or ignore them, but at the same time I am not trying to say that because of these things the Church is as Evenbob said the most evil institution ever.

Quote: FrGamble

I am not trying to say that because of these things the Church is as Evenbob said the most evil institution ever.

You know why it's the most evil? Because it's
evil was so insidious and went on for such
a long time. It went on for a thousand years.
I have nothing but respect for the truly
smart men who thought it up and perpetuated
it, what a brilliant plan. It had nothing to
do with god or Jesus, and everything to do
with keeping the men in power, in power.
Leading lives of comfort and influence. The
brightest of the brightest went into the Church,
what other option was there. The whole thing
fascinates me no end.

But never for a minute think there was anything
behind it but greed and power. The god and Jesus
myth was just a means to an end, and they used
it brilliantly.

Evenbob, another example of your brainwashed, biased, false, and exaggerated history. Everything about the Church is about Jesus Christ, its founder. What do you think the early followers had to gain from believing in Christ? They were all except John (who was exiled) were martyred. You are being foolish when you think greed and power and behind people taking vows of poverty and serving the poorest of the poor.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't mind disagreements, that would be cool.

I never believe a Catholic when he says that in relation to religion.

Quote: FrGamble

You are being foolish when you think greed and power and behind people taking vows of poverty and serving the poorest of the poor.

And you are being foolish if you think
the ranks of the men in charge isn't
all about greed and power. Did you
ever read that long researched article
I sent you that detailed, with footnotes,
exactly how the Church amassed it's
fantastic wealth? They robbed and stole
and coerced it from people, just like
was common in those days. They did
it steadily over hundreds of years, and
when the Middle Ages dawned, they
were the richest organization on earth.
All gained by greedy men through theft,
trickery, and just taking what they wanted
thru any means necessary.

Gods egocentric greedy messengers, crooks
and charletons all..

Quote: Evenbob

And you are being foolish if you think
the ranks of the men in charge isn't
all about greed and power.

So in your mind Pope Francis is about greed and power as was Pope Benedict XVI and St. John Paul II?

Quote:

Did you
ever read that long researched article
I sent you that detailed, with footnotes,
exactly how the Church amassed it's
fantastic wealth?

I'm sorry but even though I read what you throw up here I have never read anything you have posted that is not twisted, distorted, well researched, and without a clear agenda of bashing the Church without caring for facts and reality.