The Holy Trinity

Quote: Evenbob

It's the starting point. You assume the
universe (NOT the BB) has been here
forever and you try and find evidence
it hasn't. We know there was a BB that
resulted in the galaxies we can see.
But the place the BB occurred in, the
universe, what is that place. Have there
been other BB's that we don't know about
yet.

It sounds like your retreating from your previous position. To quote you:

Quote: EB

The universe has been here forever,
no beginning and no end, no such
explanation is needed.

I assume nothing. I don't need an answer to all the big questions. I'd rather be on the defense, challenging affirmative statements than making any of my own. The burden of evidence is always the one in the affirmative.

Quote: Evenbob

It's the starting point. You assume the
universe (NOT the BB) has been here
forever and you try and find evidence
it hasn't. We know there was a BB that
resulted in the galaxies we can see.
But the place the BB occurred in, the
universe, what is that place. Have there
been other BB's that we don't know about
yet.

Trying to explain it all with stories wandering
nomads dreamed 10K years ago is a
pointless exercise. It's interesting that both
Buddhism and Hinduism say it's
all been here forever in one form or another.
We think we see creations, we think we see
beginnings and endings, when all we're
really seeing is an on going process.

I think we believe it has been here forever because we are not scientifically advanced enough to prove it otherwise

Quote: Wizard

It sounds like your retreating from your previous position. To quote you:

'The universe has been here forever,
no beginning and no end, no such
explanation is needed.'

How is that in any way different
from what I just posted. The BB
had a beginning, the universe
did not. The BB is IN the universe,
it's not the universe. Like Ace said,
where is the results of the BB
expanding to, exactly.

Quote: aceofspades

I think we believe it has been here forever because we are not scientifically advanced enough to prove it otherwise

That is fine by me, because you used the word "believe" and it is a reasonable conclusion. When people hold things out as a statement of fact, that's where I get annoying by asking for proof.

Quote: aceofspades

I think we believe it has been here forever because we are not scientifically advanced enough to prove it otherwise

Or to prove it has been here forever.
We know little about what's in our
own galaxy, let alone alone what's
outside of it.

The amount of matter in the universe doesn't necessarily need to be offset by antimatter.

Instead, one theory puts mass and energy together on one side (as they can be exchanged, though not necessarily easily) and gravity on the other side as "negative energy"

With that way of thinking, all of the mass and energy in the universe is offset with the same amount of force/energy due to gravity, with a net sum of zero.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_energy

I'm kind of confused by Evenbob's position. He admits that our observable universe had a beginning, but believes there are other universes or a larger universe that we are part of. Excuse me but how is this invisible and undetectable multi-verse any different than ace's dinosaur or a flying spaghetti monster?

I also think it is just kicking the can down the road a bit. You still have to have a philosophically sound explanation for where the contingent multi-verse came from.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm kind of confused by Evenbob's position. He admits that our observable universe

That's because you misuse the word 'universe'.
You think the galaxies are the universe and it's
not. That's like taking a gallon of water from
the ocean and calling it 'the ocean', like the
gallon is exactly the same as the ocean itself.
The gallon is part of the ocean, not the ocean
it came from.

Like they say, the universe is not only bigger
than we imagine, it's bigger than we can
imagine. It's infinite, which our minds cannot
grasp. So we little peons invent quaint stories
of creator gods to deal with what we cannot
possibly begin to grasp or understand.

That's why the mystics of the East seem so
attractive. They say don't even try and understand
it, just accept that you're an eternal part of
everything. Quit inventing silly Parker Bros
board games about gods and saviors and
heavens and hells and sins and devils and all
that other stuff that we use to entertain
ourselves about how important we are.
Because face it, religion is first and foremost
about drama and entertainment and how we
are the apple of some gods eye and the center
of his universe. Our little egos are attracted
to that like flies to honey..

Yeah, um, I don't think that clarified much Bob. I'm using universe to mean all matter, energy, and space that exists. This is including your invisible and undetectable multiverse and dinosaurs.

I am sincerely glad you have a notion of the infinite. You are not as far from God as you seem.

Quote: Evenbob

Or to prove it has been here forever.
We know little about what's in our
own galaxy, let alone alone what's
outside of it.

We know even less about our oceans